Cheats vs Cheese – How Do They Differ?

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There’s been a lot of discussion on the BG2 Boards relating to cheese and cheats, much of it recent. I am not looking to start yet another debate on whether a specific tactic is legitimate or cheesy/cheating (although there will probably be debate on how to define cheese/cheats), nor do I want to get into a discussion on how “evil” cheese/cheats are (which would be rather hypocritical of me, given my recent comments in the powergaming thread). Instead, for recognised cheese/cheats, I’m curious as to what people think differentiates the two, since I'm often not sure myself.

Take fake talk as example; I don’t think there’s much debate that this is cheesy or cheating, but which one is it? In other words, what is the definition of cheese, and how does this differ from the definition of cheating? And do the differences matter, or does it amount to the same thing?

Probably a silly topic, but let the debate begin

[ October 08, 2003, 18:00: Message edited by: Splunge ]

 

OK, my two cents.

Cheating would be using game bugs to your advantage - such as fake talk, pickpocketing another Ring of Gaxx, ...

Cheese would be using cheesy item - like the Cloak of Cheese - which also protects from area effect spells and even dragon's breaths. Also using simmy to cast from rare scroll (Prot. from Magic, ...), abusing the cheesiest of all - Project Image - to summon creatures over the limit, ...

 

I'd define cheese as exploiting the rules of the game, playing to win at any cost. Cheats would have to be anything you couldn't normally do in the game. ie: Casting cloudkill-type spells and grabbing hold of Staff of the Magi is cheesey, ctrl-J'ing yourself into a group of enemies to get the most out of 3 spell-sequenced Sunfires would be cheating.

 

There are other things that the game allows, but shouldn't, that I consider at least a little cheesy. Like pickpocketing the Helm of Glory from the priest in the Temple of Helm. Okay - gems and gold, even a magic ring I can understand. But if somebody reaches down my pants and pulls out a spiked football helmet with long sharp horns, I'm damn well gonna notice. Potion of master theivery, my ass.

He he...just got the mental picture of me trotting around the office with a helmet in my pants...he he "Why yes, that IS a helmet in my pants, AND I'm happy to see you, boss!"

 

@ Death Rabbit LMAO

I define cheese as exploiting something in the game that just cannot/should not happen, which would cover everything from fake talk, to getting more than one ring of gaax. Basically, everything from that powergaming thread and from the are you cheesy thread would go here.

I define cheating as modifying the game in such a way that you circumvent what the game designers intended, such as consoling something into the game, or using Shadowkeeper for PC modification.

Basically, if you are exploiting something that was programmed into the game, it's cheese. If you are altering the game by creating items or changing statistics, that's cheating.

 

One point I'll make is that sometimes you have to use the console to solve bugs -- for instance, if the game isn't giving you an item that you KNOW you've done everythinng you need to do to get, and you need it to progress, I have no problem fixing that problem via the console.

 

True, true Lord Keldin.
Honestly, who's going to demand everything be done right and proper the umpteenth time around? or is going to waste time walking around large areas when you can just ctrl-J yourslef there?

 

@ DR –

@ Elendrile – I think LKD was referring to something else. For example, let’s say you had killed everyone in the Guarded Compound, but due to a weird bug, C’Fury didn’t drop. LKD would have no problem consoling it in since he should have it anyway (and I agree with him). You on the other hand are referring to using a cheat to bypass the drudgery of having to walk over areas that you’ve already covered; I have no problem with that either (Ctrl-J is my favourite key (well, keys) after the space bar ), but this is different from LKD's point (I think).

@ Aldeth – your definitions get at where I have some difficulty. Using fake talk as an example again, it should not happen, and it is not what the designers had in mind, so it seems to fit into both of your definitions. So is it cheating or cheese? Is the difference that fake talk can be done within the game, whereas you have to go outside the game to use the console? In which case, does it matter whether it's called cheating or cheesy?

Aldeth defined cheese as something that just cannot/should not happen. Probably not a bad definition, and I’m wondering if that essentially means that in order to define something as cheesy, you can only do it when viewed from a roleplaying perspective. In other words, if you are saying that something shouldn’t happen, basically you’re saying that it’s not realistic, whereas a saying “the game lets me do it, so it must be OK” is not roleplaying. Opinions?

 

@ Splunge

Well spoken. You seem to have gotten my point. As far as fake talk is concerned, I'd have to label it as cheesy, not cheating. You are not going outside the bounds of the game to do it, although it is unrealistic from a roleplaying perspective. It's also a really cheap way of getting a kill. I smell a poll brewing out of this topic...

 

I'm also having difficulty with the definition. I would say that cheating is everything you do to get an advantage through means outside of the game (including the console). Cheese would then be everything you do that is unrealistic and wasn't meant by the designers.

However, I think Fake talk is defenitely cheating, even though it's inside the game. Which is an exception. I don't really know why I consider this cheating and using project images for scrolls and summons as cheese.

 

personally i think cheats are through the console or something like SK. Cheese is exploiting the game system.

 

Cheesy: Taking advantage of a known flaw in the game for the purpose of gaining an edge within the game that ideal and/or realistic circumstances would not allow (internal).

Cheating: Using or modifying something from outside the game engine (Shadowkeeper) or the existing gaming world (your self-created/imported Hackmaster O' Grinning Death +6 that you buy from Ribald for 5gp), or using designer-implemented coding hacks (CLUAConsole) for use within the game, for the purpose of gaining ad edge within the game that ideal and/or realistic circumstances would not allow (external).

Nuff said, yo.

* Skips off to let the ladies admire "helmet" in pants*

 

Another thing to think of is the common sense factor -- if I feel it would make sense in the real world, I think it's neither cheating or cheesy. For instance, setting traps close to Firkraag is cheesy -- no dragon (or other sentient, for that matter) is that stupid. But setting them quite a ways away, to me, is OK -- I mean you do it surreptisiously(sic), you could argue that while the game engine doesn't permit it, logically you could have someone go up and distract the dragon whilst the thief sneakily sets some traps -- I say it's realistic and not cheesy, others say the dragon would notice.

[ October 08, 2003, 23:23: Message edited by: Lord Keldin Depaara ]

 

Working on a BG dictionary/encyclopedia, Rabbit? Seriously, though, good form, good form!

IMHO, cheating implies doing something that actually alters the program itself, such as, well, the debug cheats that are part of the engine, etc. Granted, there are times when tjis may be necessary to correct a bug, as with Celestial Fury above -- sort of like "fighting fire with fire," you might say.

IMHO, cheese implies doing something that takes advantage of a game bug or engine limitation, but without any direct intervention on the part of the player, ala clua console, etc. I especially define cheese by doing anything that no DM with half a brain would ever let you do in a PnP session, such as Cloudkilling a dragon from outside the fog of war, etc. Again, granted, in some cases you may have to "fight fire with fire" to compensate for something you SHOULD be able to do, but can't due to a game bug or engine limitation, etc.

You bought, you paid for it, play it however you like. But, please, when you post, just have the intellectual honesty to give us the full story before expecting us to be wowed by your clever accomplishment. Okay, I'm really just jealous because I have yet to achieve a clever accomplishment on my own!

 

I'm going to be a bit more strict on definitions.

Cheating is doing something that shouldn't be possible, we're in agreement there. Console, SK, all cheats.

Cheese is doing something that gives you an unfair advantage (ala. Door on the Adamantine Golem trick). If it wouldn't happen in a PnP session, it's cheese.

 

The difference between cheasy and cheat is smaller than many here claim, in my opinion as well. Abusing a bug in a game can be cheating just as easily as cheasy. I'll make an example of the most recent game (only one, really) that I'm playing online with others. Jedi Academy.

Jedi Academy has special moves called 'katas" that are unique for each style. The point with a kata is that it is a completely automated move, usually activated instantaneously and doing huge amounts of damage in a short time, effectively killing anyone instantaneously who doesn't get out of the way. No normal strike can accomplish this. Because some kata's with some styles are more powerful than others (ie, more difficult to dodge, or counterattack), some people take these styles delibarately and "kataspam" their way to fortune through masses of other players, or even in duels. However, with extreme effort and skill, you can even gain an advantage over the most difficult-to-counter katas. This is what is cheesy. It's cheesy because it takes away the purpose of honest, fair and skillful combat. To many this means: "why train to block and hit when I can just press this all the time?". It doesn't look nice, but fraghunters don't care.

But there's another thing. Such as a bug to strike at a place where you no longer are (mark a danger-zone and when someone enters it, you can strike them down from a distance). A bug to get into the map's solid areas so you are undetectable and invulnerable against other players. This is cheating.

Neither is an outside method of using cheatcodes or third-party software to get illegal advantage. Still, I think the clear between cheasy and cheating is clear here.

 

To me, pickpocketting bonus rings: Gaxx, Ram... is cheating. Noramlly, there's only one of each in the game, it's a bug.
Fake talk is cheating, it's a bug, and a real shame that some people use that 'tactic'
Pickpocketting Ribald's ring early on in the game is somewhat cheesy, but I don't care, I don't like to sleep / use healing spells after each fight.
Using "good" spells on bad creatures (strength 18 on golems) is a cheat.
Using cloudkill isn't cheesy, it's just a good spell. But I wonder, against high MR creatures, is it a bug? (note that Viconia can't stand cloudkill either).
Stealing the helm of glory isn't cheesy, it's strange. Notice that you can pick up full plates too! It is cheesy to steal all objects in a shop.

 

Do you count this as Cheat: **SPOILER SPOILER**
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I got myself the Gesen Bow Shaft under the Tanner shop (you know), and now im in spellhold just finished Irenicus, and I've lost my gesen shaft..It just Poofed to thin air (haven't sold it, haven't dropped it), so I was wondering to add the shaft back to me with ShadowKeeper, So do you count this as Cheating?
since I honestly don't know where it's dissapeared, I first thought Yoshmimo had it, but no..

and I bet you all call this a cheese, but with mislead you can do wonderful things if you just leave your illusion char away and start moving with your own Helped me on some tough parts

Sry, again

 

Nope.
If you are sure that you did not sell it (and obviously didn't wanna loose it) CLUA it in.

What about using the Alt button to markout all doors and latches. If you got a good tracking thief Alt button will also show up traps you havent actively searched (happened to me).
So is using it a cheeze??

 

Cloudkill, like any spell or item, isn't cheesy in and of itself, but how you use it can be.

For instance, my thief might scout ahead of the party while hiding in shadows, and discover a room with a beholder in it -- one we have little chance of defeating and still being in any shape to deal with anything else afterwards. So my thief shows my mage how close to get without getting spotted, and from outside of the room casts into the room with Stinking Cloud, Web, and then Cloudkill. The beholder is held fast, and will likely die because of it, and if not, will probably be weak enough to deal with easily. Would work in most PnP situations, would probably not incite groans or rolling eyes from audience members at the movies.

On the other hand, stand just outside of a certain dragon's sight range (and the fog of war) and fire off your Cloudkill until the message box says "party has gained xx,xxx experience points -- as cheesy as it gets, and quite runny at that. If YOU were a dragon, and the part of your cave you were in was suddenly enveloped in an acidy cloud that was inching you closer and closer to death the longer you sat in it, would you just wait and die, or would you run out of the area of effect and start looking for the intruders...?