Caster level and multiclassing.

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After perusing the UPP and JUPP and relating it to what I thought about caster levels as well as an ear bashing when this game first was released I need to ask this.

How is caster level actually worked out by this game, not necessarily DND PNP 3E rules, since the game is different.

If I had a Wizard 6 Sorc 7 Druid 5 cast Flamestrike spell what would the casting level be if the total character level is 18. Is the spell at a level 18 DC for enemies or what? I don't really know what the game does, since I've not noticed, but having an ubercharacter like that would be pointless if the casting level is too low.

Help and advice most welcome.

 

Caster level comes directly from the class you're using to cast the spell as. In your example, you wouldn't even be able to cast flamestrike (it's 5th level for druids, IIRC) but even if you could, you'd cast it at caster level 5 - ie. not much of any damage.

That's why multiclassing with casters is a BAD idea.

DC for any spell is calculated as 10 + spell's level + caster's primary stat bonus + spell focus feats. Dreadmasters get an extra +1 DC on their enchantment spells, and some spells have inherent modifiers. Spell DC has NOTHING to do with the caster's character level.

 

The lame example was just to ask how the things work. Anyway, a wizard sorc 15/15 would not be as good for damage spells as a pure sorc or wizard?

 

Definitely not unless you were some insane maniac of low level spells. You'd have tons of arcane spells probably augmented by handy Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feats as well as with better damage thanks to elemental feats, but you would be a couple of spell ranks behind a one-class caster and your spells would have a low DC because of the low caster level. The latter shouldn't be a problem when annihilating hordes of enemies with poor saves (most of normal enemies have only one good save if at all), but you would blow in confrontation with bosses or human players.

Still, I'm sure it's perfectly possible to finish the game as wizard/sorcerer solo. The key would be Spirit of Flame, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Greater Spell Penetration and good summons. The sole amount of fireballs and sunfires should blast all standard enemies into oblivion and summons, especially elementals, should be enough to get rid of the bosses. The downside is that direct melee fight wouldn't be an option as you would have neither good physical parameters (INT and CHA would be your chief focus and you would want to save on STR rather than DEX, while we all know how useful Weapon Finesse is against enemies with lots of HP or damage reduction), nor potent combat buffs. If your elementals got dismissed, you would be burned. If you get surrounded by magic-resistant opponents, you would practically be dead.

 

Once again: Character's level has absolutely no meaning when calculating spell DC's, no matter if you play pure class or multi.

However, character's level* affects damage or duration of most of the spells. Note the damage caps on various spells, though - for example, a fireball will do 1d6 per caster level, but only up to 10d6. After that it doesn't do diddly squat if you raise your level to two thousand, you'd still do 10d6 with your fireballs.

* = here: The level in that particular class, whose spells you're casting. Obviously equal to character total level in pure-class characters, but less otherwise.

If you try to mimic a 2nd edition multi-class character and raise your levels side by side (the so-called 50/50 split), you don't get two 'nearly' as good characters put into one. You'll get two extremely weak characters with only half the level of a corresponding pure-class character put into one.

Doing 50/50 splits is OK with warriors as they don't get anything really flashy stuff at higher levels, nothing compared to high level spells at least. But avoid it at all costs with spell casters, unless you have an extremely strong reason for doing so.

 

... like going paladin/wizard, for instance

 

Chev, now *that* is an unlikely combination! And definitely NOT a "strong reason"

Personally, even for warriors, I see little reason for 50/50 splits. I really don't see how a Fighter(15)/Barbarian(15) would be stronger than a Fighter(4)/Barbarian(x). If the point of the fighter levels is extra feats, then why not spend more Barbarian levels and get Greater Rage, not to mention more uses of it? That would be a much more powerful combination, methinks.

Even in PnP 3E, the only 50/50 combination that I think works well would be Cleric/Wizard, and then ONLY if you plan to take the Mystic Theurge prestige class.

 

Not to hijack your thread Khazraj but ...

It may be that the arcane spells need higher DC but I dont think devine spells need it.
From what I can remember, the DC of a spell generally comes into play only if it is specifically targeted on any creature. Also there are only a few offensive devine spells, not to mention that 9th level spells for clerics and druids are pretty crappy.
So mixing in more than a few levels for a divine caster makes sence IMO.

 

Spell duration and strength depends on caster level as well, so only spells that have a fixed effect are unaffected by caster level. I don't think there are many such spells. Another thing is level cap for improving effects. Beyond a certain level spells won't improve and once you have reached that level, they don't get any better. Again, those are mostly attack spells and depend on DC to work.

 

Paladin/Wizard ??

Now that's a strange reason to do 50/50 split.

But hey, not everyone wants to play Rogue(2)/Wizard(x) or Paladin(1)/Sorcerer(x) the whole time.

 

With the exception of magic classes, most classes reach they maximum benefit by the time they hit 10th level. I really can't see any reason, other than roleplaying, to create a character with a 50/50 split. I think that's why almost all multi-classing on this board is more of like 1-4/x because in most cases you get what you want out of just taking the first four levels. Beyond that, it seems you are only weakening your character by limiting his focus. Typically, when creating your characters, you want them focused on a certain class, but sometimes, you'll mix in other classes to get additional benefits and attempt to make a more playable character. I don't want to say more powerful, because that may not be the case and there are a few people on here that only look at things from a roleplaying perspective. I know that when I was building my characters, I was thinking of their background story in my head. My Fighter 4/Rogue X, for example, I think of her as a Rogue who was fathered by a mercenary and taught her how to be deadly with a short sword. So that is how I justify giving her 4 levels of Fighter, when in the end it is only for weapon specialization (and the additional hit points don't hurt either).

 

Yes, paladin/wizard.

http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/14/1847.html#000000

 

Yes, playable is the right term to describe multiclassing.

Do what you want with the characters. This game can become really easy (read: boring) if you powergame too much (as shown by the JUPP).

Multiclassing can also be used to add challange or to test your abilities. My last solo character was a greatsword wielding fighter 4/ Monk X. I put all the ability increases in str and left con to a humble 6. Even though I never finished the game with him, it was fun. (I got to final chapter and lv 19 monk)

Heh, chevalier's paladin/wizard must be the most commonly linked character.

 

I am still confused due to conflicting information here. Chev says character level matters to DC while Jukka says it doesn't. Well what is it?

I know the difference between caster level and character level. Do either or both or neither matter in the computer game version (not PNP)?

 

Chev said caster levels not charecter levels.

Lets take an Aasimar Paladin[3]/Sorcerer[27] as an example.

Any fireball he throws will use his 27 Sorcerer levels for calculating DC.
His own saving throws and HP will use both his paladin and sorcerer levels for their calculations.
His ECL +1 means that eventually he will need 29,000 more XP than a Human to get to the level cap.

Does this help?

 

Jukka said it twice already. Caster level and DC of spells are completely unrelated. A wizard of 5th level with no spell focus feats and 18 int will have absolutely the same DC of his fireball as a wizard of 30th level with 18 int and no spell focus feats.
Damage will differ for 5d6. This DOES have to do with caster level. As well as duration for whatever spell that is not instant. Like mage armour for instance 5 rounds/level. This is caster level. Even if you have sorc 5/wizard 25 it'll only last for 25 rounds if you cast it with your sorcerer spell selection.

 

Jukka said: DC for any spell is calculated as 10 + spell's level + caster's primary stat bonus + spell focus feats

When you look at "+ spell's level", you could understand - you can use spells with higher DC. This does not mean that leveling a characters is equal to raising DC of all spells, but to obtain spells (or a possibility to cast) of higher level e.g. with higher DC.

Higher spell level -> higher DC (no cap at all). Higher caster level -> more damage (each spell has different cap, some does not have one).

 

I assumed that much is clear.

If you cant cast a spell, then you dont need to concern yourself with DC of it. If you can cast it, then it doesnt matter anymore since it's not dependant on it anymore.


This can be quite confusing sometimes, especialy if you start mixing what you know with other rules from previous editions, or even other rulesets.

 

Thanks Gothmog.

Now if I was to have a 15 Sorc/15 Wizard it makes no difference to DC than either 30 Wizard or 30 Sorc? (Depends on the spell's level)

So... to have the first character cast a fireball and the second would yield the same results as far as DC and damage etc are concerned.

Obviously the 15/15 combo would not have higher end level spells or as many that the Wizard 30 or Sorc 30 would have.

If you confirm what I have always suspected it means that my original hunch did not require the ear bashing I got a few years ago on this topic.

In the end a 15/15 split would not be as high end spells powerful but would still be equal with lower level spells.

At least that is how the computer game handles it, and not the PNP since that is irrelevant to me.

 

If you're ONLY interested in getting a whole lot of fireballs (not the delayed blast kind) to toss, going sorc15/wiz15 IS actually the better choice, yes.

I mean, what use is double duration buff spells, double duration enemy disablers, 9th level spells and much faster access to actually usefull spells in comparison to being able to toss twelve fireballs per resting instead of just six or so?

Note that if you actually try doing the sorc/wiz split, you'd have to wait until character level 21 (sorc10/wiz11) before even getting access to Mass Haste. That is, you would miss out on one of the very best combat buffs all the way to well into HOF mode..

Then again.. the only spells I can think of that have damage caps that extend beyond level 15 are Delayed Blast Fireball and Horrid Wilting. Skull trap most definitely is capped, even if there's no explicit statement on this anywhere. My 30th level sorcerer doesn't do much at all damage with his skull traps, whereas DBFB does a whole lot.

So.. if we disregard those two spells, sorc15/wiz15 has more ammunition to throw at enemies per one rest cycle than a pure-class would.