Budge Computer Question

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Got word today that my current computer has seen the last of its days, so it's time I start looking for a new one. My requirements are fairly simple - so long as it can run games like NWN2 (even on min video settings). My main goal is to try and get something cheap but of a quality that I won't have to update it for a number of years.

Anyway, looking at three different systems, all within a few hundred dollars (NZ dollars) - which is enough that I don't mind spending it if there will be a serious difference, but would prefer not to. So, as I know very little about computers, was wondering if anyone here could offer any advice.

 

I'd mix the best features of all 3.

• C2D E7300...for only $44 more, you could get a C2D E8400 (340MHz faster core, faster FSB, double the L2 Cache)
• 4GB of Corsair XMS2...don't waste your money on the Dominator sticks. The XMS2 is good enough. Also, do you really need 4GB? 2GB will save you some cash. Ceck out the TWIN2X2048-6400C4DHX
• ATI Radeon HD4870 512MB PCIE
• Stick with an Asus mobo...any northbridge chip that starts with a "G" has intigrated graphics, which you don't want. You want a P43 or better NB. The ASUS P5QL PRO doesn't look too bad. It's not much more $$ either.

I know prices differ a bit from the US to NZ, but I just configured a rig from a mix of your listed parts for $672USD on Newegg....

 

Well, the thing is the first and last one are 'pre-defined' ones (which I found are generally a bit cheaper), where as the second is one of these things where you can choose the components and they put it together.

http://www.pcwizard.zeamarket.co.nz/

But noted about the Dominator stick! Thanks

 

I second what Kitrax said, but with my usual reservations about newer ATI cards and Asus mobos. However, if you get an ATI card, you can take one from Asus. Do not take one from Gigabyte if it is actively cooled (has a fan). Gigabyte is still learning how to make an actively cooled card work right, while passives are okay.

As for ATI, the 48XX series has crash issues and overheating issues. Overheating is supposed not to affect performance or stability, but it actually does affect them. At least the driver goes weird. At any rate, get a 4870 rather than 4850 and you may be fine. The 4870 seems to be less problematic than 4850. Can't say a thing about 4830, but you probably want more power than that. I have a 7200 CPU, which is about 6-7% slower than an 8400 in games (while possibly 33% slower in serious applications) and a 4850 and I see 15 fps in NWN2 in 1680 * 1050 with all stuff turned on outdoors (while a near-stable 58-60 fps indoors). By the way, buy a card with custom cooling if you can. Reference coolers are loud. That might be the reason why they were factory-set to run at 20% rotation speed and early drivers didn't offer the option to crank them higher. Getting a factory-placed non-reference cooler is better than replacing the cooler on your own because 1) it's cheaper much of the time (really... and those coolers can be quite good), 2) it's tested. Look at Palit's Sonic coolers. They're great. You can buy a passively cooled card (big heatsink, no fan) if it has the option to put a fan on (meaning you get braces or screw holes to mount a fan easily, as well as a port on the card for a power plug). In that case, take such a card before any other, but buy a fan already.

And in my view, I repeat again, getting a factory non-reference cooler is better than replacing the cooler on your own. Cheaper (they already earn a hefty sum, they don't need to rob you blind on every part - plus, you don't pay for the reference cooler), tested to work, subject to RMA (the best part), no issues, no time-consuming work on your part. And the best option is probably indeed to find a passively cooled card that offers 1) fan screw holes or fan braces, 2) sufficient power intake from the mobo and the PSU (I mean proper 6-pin or 8-pin power plug) to power a fan - and, naturally, a power outlet on the card for the fan. This is because big heatsinks are very expensive if you buy one separately. By contrast, the cost is well-covered when you buy it on a card. That heatsink is designed to make gaming possible and while it doesn't always work like that (a heatsink alone, even very big, won't normally last through a looong session of hardcore gaming), adding a strong (but silent) fan on top of it should put you ahead of custom-made overclocking setups. So do yourself a favour.

 

I recommend looking at the AMD as you could have a comparable system for a few hundred less.

AMD Athlon 7750 is the fastest Athlon and will run 1066 memory and is about $20-30 less than Intel chips; aslo most AMD motherboards can be had for $5-15 less.

As for GPU; I recommend Nvidia over ATi, because they are stable and don't overheat or crash when you finally getting into a good part of a game.

Here is the system I would go with...

Asus 8200 Nvidia Motherboard
AMD Athlon 7750 BE
1066 DDR2 RAM 5-5-5-15
XFX/EVGA 9800GT+ or 9800GTX 512MB
500GB 32MB Hard-drive (you want more storage if you want the PC to last you a while)

This system has a energy saver mode when not using the 3dfx card; this will help reduce your eletric bill.

This setup will be around $400-600 depending on the price of the parts and the additional items you decide to go with.

 

Really? You'de sacrifice that much power for $20-30?

Take a look at Tom's Hardware comparison of the Intel E8400 and the AMD Athlon 7750 Black.
The 3DMark Vantage score:
Intel E8400: 8698
AMD 7750: 7467

the PCMark Vantage score:
Intel E8400: 5180
AMD 7750: 4309

Just on those two benchmarks alone, the E8400 is clearly more powerful...not sure if you would willingly give up that performance gain to save $20-30.

Here's Tom's full list of desktop CPU charts for Q3-2008

 

For real cheap?

AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ 65w.
Compatible AM2 mobo.
2gb or 4gb of either Corsair XMS2 or Kingston ValueRAM.
Asus GeForce 9600GT Silent
500gb Barracuda 7200.11, as long as you do the firmware update.
Some FSP Group / Nexus / Antec 500w 80plus power. (500w 80plus is essential.)
Samsung Superwritemaster optical. (Just a preference.)

Pretty damn solid, and I have a box nearly exactly this next to me. Other than the firmware update, no hardware problems. Should have no trouble with NWN2.

A bit more pricey but with plenty of power?

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400
Compatible motherboard (P5Q is a good one I hear).
4gb of Corsair XMS2 or Kingston ValueRAM. I have a preference for the Kingston.
Asus 9800GT 512mb. (The 9800GT is the 9800 model with best price/performance ratio.)
500gb Barracuda 7200.11. Needs a firmware update.
FSP Group / Nexus / Antec 500w 80plus power. (Hey, this didn't change.)
Samsung Superwritemaster optical. (Still just what I like.)

My own system updated a generation.

The crashing and overheating problem in the 48xx series? Affects pretty much every ATI card last few years. I'd steer well clear of them, especially the more recent ones.

 

One thing you must not do is to buy a fixed pc out of the box like HP, DELL, Packard Bell. Custom made pc's whit picked parts can be upgraded later piece by piece extending the life of the motherboard. The cases of the above mentioned brands are often not capable of housing new graphic cards so take a roomy PC case.

As a happy ATI user I say that the best brand for ATI is Sapphire. Twice I did not get this brand and was sorry. (Yes Gigabyte) Other good brands are HIS, Powercolor, Asus, Club3d and XFX. All experts on the net agree the ATI 4850 is the best bang for buck. The cooling problems are over whit the newer stock and stability is as good as Nvidia's. The Nvidia 9800 series is of the same generation as the 3870. it is a good serie and not a bad buy. If you choose that, take the GT. No other. Both make deliver what you want. brands:
ASUS, XFX.

At this moment I use a Sapphire 3870 toxic. It is a lot weaker than the 4850 or 4870 but a lot cheaper. It however still runs 1680x1050 in Fallout 3 on high settings. Sacred 2, Bioshock dito. It can still cut it and be useful for a year or more making the GPU the easiest thing to upgrade later.

If money is an issue never save on the motherboard. Invest a few bucks more for at least the p43 or p45 serie. If you buy a OEM version of windows it will be linked to the motherboard, so make sure that it is upgrade proof. You can upgrade everything but not the motherboard whit a OEM version. My brand for the motherboard is Gigabyte. Just as good as Asus and closely followed by MSI.

There are two memory treads in this forum explaining a lot about it.

 

Great! Thanks for all the advice guys! Given me a bit to think about

 

For all ATI fans: http://forums.amd.com/game/messagev...d=92659&STARTPAGE=7&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

 

I've got a Powercolor 3870, and I dito everything Merlanni says.

From what I've read, the latest ATI 4870's running the latest drivers have solved the heat issues. But to save some $$$ a 3870 is a great value for what it can do...however if you're in to Crysis, the 3870 isn't quite up to the task. It'll run the game, but not very well.

 

Heat issues could be solved easily before - you made a profile and you manually edited it to change fan speed from that level. But the fan was awfully loud at that point. Many users have this problem and there are many possible reasons, many of which having to do with .NET framework driver problems or TDR (timeout detection & recovery) or Vista's Aero interface. Sometimes cards get successfully RMA'd over this. Not saying your card shouldn't work, of course, but issues are by no means marginal and they affect primarily the 4K series. Some people have reported similar issues with nVidia, but not so many. Google "ATIkmdiag" and you'll get many pages of bugs. I'm not a great fan of nVidia, though. At least no ATI card has ever died on me.

 

The price of the E8400 is $169 vs. $75 for the AMD 7750. That is almost $100 more dollars. Why spend that much more on a CPU? If he was going to spend $169 I recommend him picking up the AMD 920 for $195; that CPU comes very close to performance of Intel's Q9400 for about $100 less.

My suggestion was based on his request to build a system that is cheap and would last him for a few more years.

 

Just found this for a nice cheap price (700NZD, about 350-400 USD). Would it be able to run games like NWN2 alright? And for that matter, would it be capable to upgrade when money is a bit less tight?

 

Unless that's a cheap package deal (which it probably isn't at that price), please, listen to me here.

You want one step better GPU and CPU, really. 9600 instead of 8600, 5000+ 65w instead of 4800+. Both make a gigantic difference, the first in performance and the second in reliability.

Other than that I don't see anything massively wrong, except that you don't list "80plus" with that PSU.

 

It is a package deal. About 30-40% cheaper than the ones I listed above (if I'm doing my %ages right...). With something like this, it is possible to upgrade to those things you suggest, right Taza?

Anyway, I have emailed the company asking if such upgrades are possible and how much extra it would add to the cost. Thanks Taza

[Edit]Oh, what's the 80plus on the PSU mean?

[Edit II] Nevermind, just looked up 80 plus on wikipedia. All becomes clear!

 

At those prices, however, the first package deal - the C2D/9800GT - in the first post becomes a better deal.

Because, really, those parts are *cheap* whereas C2D 7300/9800GT provides plenty of punch for pretty much any game sold today.

EDIT:

Now that I've had a bit more sleep, a more in depth explanation.

Either you're mixing currencies or you're picking the wrong stores to buy from.

The AMD build I listed should be roughly half to three quarters the price of the C2D build and have significantly less gaming power. However, those price differences make it simply stupid - a package deal 30% less means that you could have a package deal C2D for the same as a build some three generations old.

For reference, the AMD build in my post - which is a significantly better build than the package deal - was some $600 built from parts when my brother bought it. Over a year ago. In parts.

You're being scammed here.

 

For around $600 you should be able to pick up

780G Mobo or 790GX mobo - $50-100
AMD 7750 CPU - $75-85
2GB DDR2 1066 RAM - $35-65
250-500GB HD - $50-100
9800GT -$100-150
PSU 400W 80% - $50-75
Case - $30-50
Keyboard/Mouse Combo - $20
Vista 32 Bit OEM - $100

This should cost you about $500-600. It maybe a bit more where you live. I recommend going 700 series AMD boards, the 7750 CPU vs. AM2 CPUs, and going with the faster memory for improved performance. These may cost you more up front but the gains are worth the extra money.

As Taza recommends a 80+ PSU. Don't bother with anything that is not 80% efficient.

 

Thanks for the advice guys. The package I listed above, comes to about $700NZ. The parts you listed there (at a very quick glance) come to about $1200NZ. Things are generally quite a bit more expensive here (doubly so now with the exchange rate) - for example, one of the cheapest prices I could find XP was >$200. The geforce 9800 seems to be about from $220 up.

After thinking about it for a bit, saving that $500 or so, at this point, is really more important than having a very up-to-date system. That's 5 weeks rent right there - which as I've had no income at all for the last 10 months while traveling round the Americas, that 5 weeks is kinda a lot. And to add to that, in the end of the day I've been playing pretty much only NWN1 (with small frays into Civ and Civ 4 every now and then), for the last 5 or 6 years. So as long as it can run NWN2, I don't think there'll be any big change for a while. It only has to last about 3 years anyway, before I'm selling up here and moving off overseas.

 

In that case, I suggest you try to find better deals.

Because, frankly, NZ 700 for a system that was USD 400 a year back is a bit steep.