BioWare Games not Good?

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At Gamers With Jobs, Sean "Elysium" Sands states his belief that BioWare games are over-rated. In his opinion, BioWare is better at selling games than making them. He denies any notion of simple deconstruction, though, insisting that his opinion isn't an eye-catcher capitalising on the denigration of a popular presence. Here's a snip:

I realize too that what I’m about to say can be dismissed as this kind of vicious and admittedly annoying deconstruction, the counter-argument to popular theory that flies in the face of convention simply for the sake of doing so. I might even entertain some self-doubt if I had a more significant history of snobbishness, if I listened to independent music that you’ve never heard of while attending films with subtitles. But, I am frankly not that complex, and rarely do I lose interest in a thing merely because others have adopted an interest in it.

So, with that disclaimer tendered, let me offer the following: I believe Bioware’s games are vastly over-rated.

Lovers of RPGs remember a time a little more than a decade ago when the genre was virtually gone, and then Baldur’s Gate came to us like a shining dream delivered from on high. Not only was this an RPG lover’s RPG, but it was a deep and complex narrative delivered with incredible depth, astounding artwork and faithful AD&D 2nd edition rules to make even the most grotesquely skeptical role-player shed a silent and joyful tear. The game was an epic, and it became the standard for a freshly reinvigorated genre. This was the company’s The Sixth Sense, the property from which Bioware leveraged a legacy of good-enough games that would be elevated to greatness and critical esteem simply by birth-right.

Read the rest at Gamers With Jobs. Don't be afraid to speak your own mind below. After all, if praising the popular ones gives you brownie points and slamming the popular gives you publicity, what can you lose?

On second thought, let me peruse the editorial privilege and begin the discussion by taking issue with some of what was said. So here goes:

I contend that with a lesser brand (and certainly without the Star Wars trappings) Knights of the Old Republic would have been a largely forgettable experience. And, Jade Empire would have been a product praised for making the effort but condemned to a host of average scores instead of being heralded by one IGN reviewer as “one of the greatest action RPG's of all-time” while another IGN reviewer suggested that the first had “underrated” Jade Empire by giving it a 9.9!

First, Knights of the Old Republic Played well. It wasn't a 10/10 material, but nonetheless one of my favourite games. Because of the Star Wars setting and a collection of ideas few other developers make come to life in their games? But that's part of the art of game making: choosing a good story setting, then coming up with a "competent story" (as the author says later in his article), a nice narrative and then the game's pretty much done (after many nights of coding, of course) except for the additional flair which makes the difference between 8.5 and 9.5. Did KotOR have some of that flair? Some. Not all. It was clearly a niche product and that's how it was intended in the very first place. It even contained some accommodation for people who would be attracted to the game for reasons other than the D&D engine - you could play the game practically as a Star Wars adventure, in a way not very different from actual previous Star Wars titles which were adventure games, while if you really cared, you could engage in the same munchkinism of powergaming as we know from D&D titles. I enjoyed every bit of the game except for the occasional bugs and I wish there were more games like that. I look forward to KotOR 3, even if this isn't very original of me.

As for Jade Empire, I played that one as well. While 9.9 is a gross overestimate and the hype elevating it to the level of best action RPG of all time is a wee bit exaggerated, there is some truth in that as well. The game had something which made you see it for more than it really was. This brings forth the question: if it was in the game itself, isn't it a part of its greatness, somewhat? This said, Jade Empire was also a niche title, not exactly the forerunner of a revolution in the genre. It was meant to be a competent game bringing about lots of fun and so it became, like a good B movie.

It’s not like I’m cherry picking here. This is pretty a common sentiment, and one that I questioned when I played Jade Empire for all of four hours before quitting in some amalgam of boredom and dissatisfaction. Like Neverwinter Nights before it, Jade Empire seemed to me like a game rife with averageness that was elevated by an admittedly competent story – that’s actually high-praise for gaming narratives – and the boisterous enthusiasm of reviewers who, I assume were playing the same game as I but coming to dramatically different conclusions. Maybe these folks are seeing something I’m not, but every Bioware game since Baldur’s Gate II seems to me like a ghost of an RPG with half-hearted trappings of the genre surrounding worlds of little depth with little choice.

Granted, I didn't exactly love the limited choice I had in some situations, although on the other hand, it wasn't so apparent, the way Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 dialogues were handled. The repetitiveness was more visible in Neverwinter Nights, actually, which didn't have the greatest dialogue system ever invented, to be honest. So yes, I'm not going to defend Neverwinter Nights in every combat sector, but I'm going to raise that it did give me a lot of fun and I enjoyed even the not-so-generally-beloved official campaign. It wasn't as great as Baldur's Gate 2 and it lacked both the epic feel and the quality filling of its predecessor, but the aim was neither an aesthetical heaven nor a great and compelling singleplayer experience, but rather a competent platform on which to build persistent worlds and plenty of modules. That goal was achieved. No 10/10? Sure. Nonetheless, BioWare did somehow make it a title with a prominent place in the history of the genre. The RPG scene is still full of Neverwinter Nights modules, the game being played many years after its release, sitting well on computers several times more powerful than what the game witnessed when it came out. Players and module-makers made it great, but it's BioWare where the design came from.

All in all, I agree that the hype is somewhat hysterical and at times embarrassing, especially when it comes from supposedly impartial sources. Be it excessive fanboyism in game journalism or kissing the royal hand to assure a stead flow of virtual benefice coming, I don't know what makes professional and high-profile amateur reviewers react that way, but I know what's in the game: fun, fun, fun. BioWare games have simply provided a lot of fun, they don't cease to, and they are games to which one returns time and time again, over and over (like that guy from our forums who played Baldur's Gate 2 some 20 times with the same character). There is more to this than BioWare PR, the hunger and lacking of the genre or the addiction of the players. BioWare games somehow make it, flawed as they are, with many of their shortcomings which even the developers admit.

Now, gentle reader, is your turn, however.

 

I conclude also that the level of the games made by Bioware has dropped. What the person is forgetting is the fact that the quality level for console rpg-ish games is lower than PC games, so it had to drop. Console are nice for, racing games, platform anything that requires more button mashing in stead of thinking. Yes I dislike console gaming for the next gen hype they get. It are and will be scaled down pc's.

Jade Empire is a console game, and I rate it for myself as a port that did not make it. Bad for Bioware? No, the Jade empire port was more than a level above the Fable port. The fable got good credit for a lesser game. So Bioware deserves the credit for that one.

The Kotors were multiplatform, so quality loss is an issue. Kotor 2 was made by obsidian so that one does not count. Kotor 1 is a game I played 3 times. Twice modded. Bad game whit a reputating that is to high. No. not whit a third game on its way, and a fanbase that still mods today. Again Bioware is above the rest, deserving its place.

NWN1, a game made for multplayer. the singleplayer was added later, and whit less time. A game that got there and is still on many harddrives. Most games from that time period are long forgotten. Two solid expansions and Bioware deserves it place again. How many times did it go platinum? It is still in stores.

Well I think Bioware deserves its reputation. Have you ever compared the forum whit that of say the Bioschock forum. That reputaion is indeed not as shiny as it was, but still brighter than the rest. Whit Bethesda gaining and overtaking it whit Fallout 3.

Dragon age is that games that will be the deciding factor. Mass Effect is a port, so it does not count. PC games only.

 

Bioware's games have gone from being the eqivalent of a good, solid book to the equivalent of a blockbuster action movie. Dragon Age looks like it might be a return to the good old days, but with so little information on it it's rather hard to say.

I'm tired of flashy loud things - can't we go back to when games were less painfully shiny?

 

I think the original linked comments are interesting, but not particularly useful as an observation. Many, many games (including the sci-fi, fantasy, and strategy CRPG and simulations) only really hit their strides after the fans have gone back and rebuilt the game into what the audience really wanted. No company can hit every target and still make money, any more than every big feature film breaks new ground and becomes a massive profit making machine. BioWare may not have created genre-defining game after genre-defining game, but then again, were they really trying to redefine new standards, or did they have to actually make money? What I don't see is who *is* making any game that will stand up to the BG>ToB Saga. TES series are close; NWN and NWNII are closer than Oblivion, for that matter. The problem with the industry in general is folks have simply forgotten that graphics are the *start* of modern gaming, noty the be all and end all. The flashy graphics attract the console gamers and PCers alike to your doorstep. But just like a novel with a lurid picture on the cover which a reader picks up and tosses away after a chapter, the lack of gameplay immersion and character interaction do not keep the audience. Put another way, we have a raft of new 1 and 2 star movies to purchase or rent. We don't seem to have many 3 or 4 star ones available. Which is why folks want to go back and rebuild Frontier Elite, X-Com, the SSI Gold Box materials, or anything else from the era where graphics *always* stank, and immersive gameplay with character interaction ruled the day.

 

Agreed. I wouldn't be playing BG2 nearly as many times as I am were it not for the efforts of the modding community. I am constantly amazed at (and grateful for) the huge devotion of time and effort that modders put into the BG saga.

 

Bioware games not good? It's a frickin' quality label, like the Rareware games a decade ago.

Sure, Jade Empire was not perfect, but it stood out in its genre. And NOT by a small margin that is. KoToR was no supergame, but I don't hear anyone saying it was bad. I wouldn't grade it more than a 9, but a good game nontheless. And Mass Effect, well... Short, but what a game. Very nice, very flexible and compelling, etc etc.

Face it, each game rocked. I still pay for the experience, and so far, Bioware delivered with great gaming experiences. Enough for me to give their games 9+.

 

Comparing Bioware to Rare? Hah! Old-school Rare kicks modern Bioware's arse any day of the week.

 

Niz, the author of the article is claiming that BioWare games are over-rated. He never claims they're not good.

With that distinction in mind, I can almost agree, even though I find it painful to do so. I love the BG games. BG2 is still one of my favourite RPG games. But every BioWare game after that has managed to hugely disappoint my expectations. And said expectations did not arise out of a "I want it to be like BG" feeling, but because the games did not live up to the hype and publicity and rave reviews that their games got. Hence the feeling they are over-rated.

(Heretical thoughts follow)

When I played BG I knew nothing about BioWare or the game, and had no idea what to expect. I loved BG, but it still had some very, very irritating moments. This was much worse with BG2: I liked the game even more, yet it was also much more irritating. I always felt I loved both games in spite of their flaws, not because of their strengths. Neither game has a terribly original plot, or indredibly good writing, or deep characterisation, but they manage to do everything well. Well, except providing a stable play experience: BG2 has got to be one of the buggiest games I've played. It's a credit to the overall game experience that we all stuck it out with the bugs and enjoyed the game in spite of them.

Year later I picked up NWN, and consider it to be one of the worst wastes of my time that I have indulged in. Many people have told me that "NWN is great because of the community content", but my problem with this is that the fan content is NOT part of the game. It's not something BioWare did, nor is it something they should get the credit for. Yes, they should get the credit for making the toolset available to the community, but that's about it. As a game and not a toolset, NWN is awful.

Kotor was alright. Same story as before really: nothing new, nothing original, but competently done. The story was predictible but enjoyable. Writing was cliché but not bad. It's really with Kotor that I started realising just how much the "false choices" (get given multiple choices of things you can say or do, all of which lead to exactly the same outcome, and usually even to the same answer word for word) were getting on my nerves. Yes, it's a good game, it's an enjoyable game... but you've got to start worrying when all it takes to get multiple GOTY awards is to be a competently done game. Was there really nothing better?

I've not played Mass Effect extensively, but from the brief glimpse I got the same thoughts I had for Kotor apply.

I don't consider BioWare to be a "quality" label. It's a label, sure - you know exactly what to expect. Something that (in Niz's words) is "no supergame, but I don't hear anyone saying it was bad". Maybe I'm demanding, but I expect more than just competent from GOTY and "best RPG ever" games. BioWare certainly makes competent games. I will go as far as saying they made some very good games, but nothing deserving the endless parade of awards they get every time. Hence why I do think they are over-rated.

(/me dons asbestos armour)

 

Just adding my

I absolutely loved BG1 and 2 with a passion - probably one of the few games that made me feel like I'd just read a good book (the whole now what do I do!).

Despite what the author says IWD1 and 2 were dramatically inferior IMHO. Although they were classed as RPGs, they felt to me more like Diablo or its equivalent in being so-called action RPGs - lots of action but no significant roleplaying. To me roleplaying involves a feeling of really being involved, not just ho-hum yet another orc/troll/assorted monster type.

Can't comment on PS:T as was perhaps a bit too immature to truly appreciate it when I first played it and it seems to not like Vista so can't reassess it now.

Bioware's later games never seemed to live up to the BG series. NWN and its expansions were fun, but they never seemed to give that feeling of I care what happens which BG was so good at.

Both Jade Empire and KOTOR were good, but both did feel like what they were - a seriously dumbed down plot that were clearly aimed at the console and were just later ported to PC. (Why do game designer's feel console owners are less capable than PC owners?)

Mass Effect was perhaps one of the main reasons for my getting a 360. I succumbed to the hype that it was 'just as good as BG but in space' Upon playing it became fairly evident that this was not the case. Yes it was fun, but there was too flaws with the plot such as

Spoiler

The ending was clearly set up to be a plot device for ME2, 3, and so on ad infinitum. As well the whole cerberus thing didn't go anywhere.

Dragon Age may redeem matters, but to be honest I think Bioware are like too many game designers in that they have one good hit/series and then don't need to put the effort in afterwards due to the hype.

Alex

 

Great comments from Ziad.

BG1 was already cliched in some ways but people tend to forgive that because it was such an icon (in the same way people praise Casablanca and ignore its limitations). By the way saying it was cliched is not tantamount to saying it was bad.

Still after a while the same "you're the chosen one" plot gets pretty stale. Bioware's games are not the only ones to suffer from that flaw (Morrowind and Oblivion anyone? Fallout 2 tends to make fun of this and integrates the "chosen one" concept in the game by making fun of this figure in some dialogues). I didn't like the beginning of KotoR because of that but it got better in the end (still it was far from perfect IMHO, the game system works fine with D&D but not so well with Star Wars and some areas were incredibly repetitive and dungeon like).

Jade Empire was fun but somehow limited. The plot began with the hackneyed "you're the one" but it was salvaged by some nice twists along the way. Still it was repetitive and felt like watching a movie not like playing a game.

Choices in dialogues and actions should have consequences. Unfortunately that is seldom the case in CRPGs.

 

Very true. BG was also the first RPG BioWare did, and it's always easier to forgive flaws and clichés in a first try (especially one as good as BG was). Another thing about BG is that it was far from being a "sure bet". It borrowed from older (early 90s) RPGs but it did not follow any particular recipe. That real-time-with-pause combat was a big risk that could have easily driven away both the grognard D&D gamers and the real-time clickfest lovers. That it appealed to both (as well as anyone in-between) was far from a certainty at the time and it took BioWare courage to stick to their idea when the CRPG market was stagnating.

BG2 is always a strange one to classify for me. I miss some of the aspects of BG that it drops (such as the large number of optional areas you can explore) but it's also such a big improvement over the first game in many ways. Good sequels are rare enough, never mind sequels that are superior to the original in many ways.

Agreed. A game can be full of clichés but still a lot of fun. Also, a game can weave clichés into a very original narrative - it all depends on how the clichés are used. Arcanum's story starts with the ever-so-typical "you're the chosen one" plot, but what it does with this premise is unique and makes for an excellent story.