Aren't There Any True Role Players Left?!

Well, I for one feel that I explained my reasons for using the XP Cap remover (which in my opinion does not ruin the game) and my experiences with Shadowkeep (which I admitted I needed to rein in somewhat); namely, that I'm in it for the experience of the adventure, the puzzle solving, the character interaction with NPCs, etc. I don't "cheat" and use the really powerful spells (ie., Timestop) unless I've already failed a few times at "normal" battle pretty miserably. I didn't inflate any of my character's stats with Shadowkeep, just added a few items and a few admittedly powerful spells. Now, if I'm playing what is essentially a puzzle game, and I figure out how I'm supposed to solve the puzzle, but the game makes it unduly frustrating for me to put a piece in place, then the game isn't as fun for me anymore. It reminds me of the Jurassic Park game Tresspasser, in which gameplay consisted of ten minutes figuring out what you're supposed to do, and 2 days fighting the interface to get your onscreen avatar to do something as simple as stack three crates on top of one another. I'd rather be spending that time figuring out riddles to get past guardians or enjoying dialogue with NPCs or using mundane but effective tactics for dealing with tough, but beatable monsters, like Golems or even Umber Hulks and Mindflayers. But Liches that continually casts Timestop and unleash a flurry of tough defensive spells and then a bunch of spells that can kill your party outright...? It may be no fun for the Lich to be on the recieving end of that same tactic, but then again, the Lich isn't playing the game, now is it? So yeah, I'll reserve my use of the "cheating" spells until I feel I really need 'em, but I don't feel all that guilty about using 'em, either. I played all the way through BG 1 without any cheats, and I honestly think it would have been more fun if I had used a few here and there just to get past sticking points. For me, it doesn't ruin the game at all. It is easy to abuse, however, so even now I'm considering limiting my ability to utilize those spells even more to prevent temptation from taking over.

Ultimately for me it comes down to my preferred style of gameplay. I gave my character some aces in the hole, so to speak, because it's either that, or I just continue to reload games after losing nearly impossible battles until I win anyway, isn't it? How true to roleplaying is it when you just keep reloading a game over and over when you die? I don't remember that being much of an option when I used to play the game with friends back in the day; you die, you actually go back and either start with a new character or you hoped that your companions would be able to resurrect you, but it wasn't "OK, let's try this battle again and again till you win," unless your DM just didn't care anyway, in which case, why bother with the fights at all anyway?

On the other hand, for some people this game is their ideal version of strategic squad-based battle, and the tough battles are the true highlights of the game. I'm sure that for these folks, using the cheats is anathema, and rightly so. I'm just not one of those people.

 

Wow, good point of view from both sides! Personally I don't use any cheats. It does make the game more frustrating sometimes and I have thought about using them from time to time, but then I remember Diablo and I cringe... Cheating ruined that game for me. Personally I love finding new treasures and developing my characters, just giving them what they need is too easy and takes all that fun out of the game, although it would be nice to have an ace in the hole when you really need it!

 

By the way, my latest tactic for using Timestop is working out quite well as far as play balance goes, relatively speaking. I've set Timestop as my contingency spell when my character gets low on hit points; it enables me to try to salvage a fight gone bad without reloading and starting over, and it lessens the temptation to use the spell right away because I know it'll be there if things get to the point where I'd probably end up reloading soon anyway.

 

oh oh i am a true role player. well when it comes to BG, BG2, and IWD at least. i don't play Diablo 1 or 2 or Nox ect. because those are power games. there is no role playing involed in those games. why are they even in the role playing section at the store???


examples; when i play an evil character in either of the 3 games i play, i steal and kill people in the game that piss me off ect. all the things that evil chararters would do. now why did i do the Unseeing Eye quest for the church while playing an evil Fighter/Thief . well i wanted to see what goodies i could find, and wanted to check out Keldorn in action. after i finished that i got suckered into to Artist Quest for the church... Damn what was i thinking. well when i finaly took the fake ore back to the artist and he found out it was fake, i went back and killed the ore merchant because she ripped me off and my evil thief was pissed off that he had done something good. he had to redeem himself so to speak.

if i play a good character, i do not steal a thing, not even something in a barrel or crate that is outside. my Lawful Good priestess wouldn't have it. as for killing innocent people, she isn't down with that either. Korgan you have been a bad boy, your out of my party. as a matter of fact, Korgan since you are so evil, i think i will leave you in these spider infested tombs where you belong.

now i have to admit i have used cheats to gain certain items in BG, but only once and i quit that game and started a new one because playing powerful characters takes away from the challenge. i now have the XP Cap remover in BG2 to see how many levels my Bard can gain before i finish the game, but it is my 3rd time through the game, and my 1st time cheating plus i upped the difficulty level as well to compinsate for my cheating ways.

i have never said this before, and will only say it once. you can play a game any way you want, you paid for it, but if want to Power Game, stick to Diablo and Nox, thats what they are created for, Power Gaming.

[This message has been edited by Wingfoot (edited December 27, 2000).]

 

Now Wingfoot, I've got to disagree with you about Diablo and Nox being meant for powergaming. In Diablo and Nox, the focus is entirely on battle; cheating in battle in that context seems a lot worse to me than cheating in a more fully realized RPG setting. See, the point I was trying to make is that a full-featured RPG isn't necessarily focused on fighting. It can be, if that's the way you prefer to play, but it's about trying to roleplay. The examples you gave of having your characters stay true to their alignment is a perfect example of what I think good roleplaying is about in a CRPG. I think that disregarding alignment and racial enemies and even such things as figuring on appropriate responses to situations based on ability scores is WAY more integral to the CRPG experience than how quickly you win fights.

 

pionts taken and i agree to some degree, but i still don't see how Diablo's and Nox can be considered RPGs.

 

If you wan't to cheat, go ahead and effing cheat. Jest DON'T do it on multiplayer coz it does my head in.

 

I agree with Tal, too many Power Gamers. I don't believe that we are in any position to judge Power Gamers in general, but when they start bragging their cheating or bashing other people because they use their original stat roll, they bring the persecution on themselves. If they would just keep quiet and stay in their little cheating rat-hole, I wouldn't mind. I too played DII multiplayer for a short while and was disgusted by the bragging that made up most of the chat. IMO, Power Gaming is the exact opposite of role-playing.

This may seem to contradict my earlier statements regarding the XP cap remover, but I believe in that I am justified. It's like saying your character simply stops learning.
I don't import any characters and play over again with a lev 17+ character, so what is the harm if I am 1 level higher than the cap when I reach the end?

NEways, lay off the Power Gaming, or at least the bragging you Power Gamers need to feel tingly inside. And if you get the chance, play some real D&D. Try Power Gaming when the DM is human, not a manipulable save-game file.

Amon-Ra

[This message has been edited by Amon-Ra (edited December 27, 2000).]

 

I Role play D&D and Im a dual class level 10 True Kensai (Not the Wimmpy Class in BG2) and Level 18 Mage. I started from level zero and it took me just over one year to get this high.

When fighting liches in True D&D you can't kill them unless to destroy their soul jar. But I can kill any monster with one level nine Wish spells.

The wish would be, I wish that will drop dead in the next second from the present time onwards. This is legit in D&D but in BG 2, the game is too restricted. Almost every powerful mage you go up against in the game are casting level 9 spells. But you can't cast them because you need to be level 18 with intelligence of 18. But I have an intelligence of 18 and can only go up to level 17, therefore no level 9 spells for you.

The point is, if this was true D&D then their be a lot less restrictions to the game, like the stupid Exp cap. In real D&D you can be a level 99 mage, it may take you 20 years to get that high.

 

IMHO

D&D was never meant to used in this UNIMAGINITIVE WAY! D&D was thought up to allow you freedom yes... but not like that.

To be honest you must have a pretty pantz DM if he lets you use spells in that way!

And only VERY sad people get mages over about level 30-40...

cummon you are getting more powerful than Elminster at that stage.

You must play loads just to have your character that powerful. In that respect i do admire you... but the way you play with that charcacter is a different story......

 

Shadow Keeper has got its uses though - the game is not perfect, and there are a lot of bugs in it. The only time i myself have used it is to replace Nalia's D'arnise signet ring which got taken by a nishruu, which i'm sure isn't supposed to happen.
Even so, whoever is playing the game has just forked out 30 quid (or whatever in America), unless it is a copy (in which case they should be hunted down and shot ), so if they want to 'ruin the game' by useing shadow keeper or the xp cap remover, they should be allowed to without all this flak you're giving them.
That is, unless they come on the sorcerer forum and start bragging about how they killed the red dragon with a single hit or something as they have buffed up theyre char. They should also be hunted down and shot
My point is tho, leave them alone unless they deserve it.

 

hey Orgrim: a level 10 fighter AND 18 mage, right? In ONE year???????????? For heaven's sake, what is your GM doing??? Throwing XP all around like confetti, like a 1.000.000XP for bringing up the bucket in the well? Does your mage had a wish-spell alright???? This is insane, unplayable...
*calming down a bit*
I for myself played P&P for several years, had 2 chars (mage and priest) and hardly was able to bring them up to level 10. We were playing regulary including all the TRUE roleplaying stuff (want example? our bard performed his tales and plays in reality, also meaning in real-time, so we often just sat and listened for a while...and not forced by GM but on his own will just for the fun of it). It was pure fun and the best rpg-experience ever had. The char's levels and stuff they had were not as important as the settings, the riddles, the gripping stories, funny and nasty NPC's we met...

...I have to say, that I really aknowledge Orgrim as a real P&P roleplayer with an asskickin' char but I just realize, that we both know and practice two different kinds of roleplaying...

 

The Experience you get depends on how often you play the game and the number of quest you have completed. I been to Ice Wind Dale, Water Deep, Under Mountain, Under Dark, Ruins of Myth Dranor and many other places. I play D&D almost every day for almost 4 hours a day with my Brothers. Most of the time my DM have taken a few artifacts off my party to make the game more difficult.

Also who says you can't become better mage than Elmister?

I remember Edwin in BG 1 saying "Elmister this, Elmister that. Give me 2000 years and a pointy hat and I kick his ass".

I think I start playing D&D third Edition in the begining of the new year.

 

I feel a need to say this, so here goes. Let the powergamers powergame all they want. Again, it is their gaming experience. Why do people feel the need to put others down.
That said, such a gamer should never defend their actions in BG2 by saying they need to cheat. Why in the world do you *need* to cheat, unless you are simply no good at the game. Every battle is winable in the game under normal circumstances with normal character progression. Every litch, dragon, mage, demon, etc. is beatable under normal game circumstances with characters allowable by the game. There shouldn't be a situation where you just constantly have to reload. And is it any more RPGish to do things you shouldn't be able to do to win than to reload? Very flawed arguments.
The argument that people are making about characters no longer learning is also flawed. Sure, you can do anything in P&P(I assume), but that is an unlimited environment. BG2 is, in a sense, a small piece of that environment. It is a limited experience, hence the cap. So what if other mages can cast level 9 spells. I'm sure you will be able to in the expansion. Point being it's taking away part of the challenge when you remove the cap. The game needed to be put together in a way that people could beat the game without doing every single quest to get all the experience points, so that you could get to the end without doing every quest and still get the max experience points. The cap has other obvious uses as well, such as allowing you to pick up characters later in the game.
Shadow keeper has only a few legit uses. If you have lost an item and need it back for some reason or another to finish the game. It's also nice to use to test out characters to see what they will play like. And it's useful to change characters in mid game(please do not read in up their stats experience-I mean get a completely different character). And let's face it, the cap remover is a cheater's tool, by cheaters, for cheaters. If your at piece with that, so be it. But don't defend your actions as if their is some logical or needful reason to us it.

 

Sorry, but I'm going to defend the X cap remover anyway. By the beginning of the fourht chapter, Minsc had already reached the cap. No, I have never used Shadowkeep to add any XP to any character in the game; I simply took on every quest that came along, and then I had poor Minsc hitting the ceiling with quite a ways to go. I thought that sucked. My own character isn't above level 12 yet, but when you mess with Minsc...

And a word about the Liches....just to clarify that I never said that I either needed to use SK to beat them or that I thought they were essential to fight to complete the game. I did in fact beat the first Lich using "standard" BG rules, but it was formulaic and tedious, not fun, when I did so.