Anyone from Poland?

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Can someone from Poland shed some light about what their country is currently experiencing, and what the brothers are up to? Part of my internship involves following the media, and I am beginning to notice that Polish politicians are making a lot of, well, let's say controversial statements. The spat with Germany, the handwringing around the EU reform treaty, and some rather pointed notes seem to be a strange political sign. However, what I read today really shook me. Maciej Giertich, a MEP from one of their conservative parties (League of the Polish Families, iirc) basically compared German Chancellor Angela Merkel to Hitler. According to the media hare, he said "For a thousand years the Germans are trying to take over Europe. We know what Hitler offered, and Angela Merkel is trying to do the same thing, but with different methods."

Now, even with something lost in translation, but as far as I know when someone in Poland or Germany talks about Hitler, it is considered a serious topic. Furthermore, it is coming from a politician on the international stage, and the father of a deputy prime minister in the current Polish government. All in all, "what the hell is going on?" is starting to feel like a very good question.

 

While I'm not polish, maybe I still can shed some light on that matter.

The whole EU contract issue had something to do with the polish conservatives fear of being 'overrun' by the teutonic hordes again, too.

I recently read a rather interesting article by the renowned conflict specialist Herfried Münkler. His opinion is that national politics are fundamentally shaped by national creation myths.

The polish creation myth is based on defense against Germany and Russia. It started when the 13th century crusade executed by the Ordo Teutonicus against the Prussians got out of hand and became an invasion into polish territory.

Since that time, Poland was invaded and split up time and again by german (prussian) and russian armies, and had to rebuild again and again.

This fear of invasion and opression runs so deep in the polish conservatives minds that the national politics against Germany is so aggressive. It's actually not the first time that Angela Merkel has been likened to Hitler.

 

Yes, in that sense the Poles are among the few whiny Nationalists I know. The normal Nationalist boasts that his country is the greatest place on earth, and undefeated even in defeat, even if that necessiates a lot of cognitive dissonance.

Not so the Polish Nationalists. Their glory lasted about till the fight against the Turks at Vienna (not too bad), and for the time following that they complain about having been defeated, divided, subverted and generally been treated like crap for the following centuries. Boo-hoo.
Perhaps they are right to complain, but for that game you need two. They ought not to blame the Prussians and Russians but their silly nobles who let themselves be bribed to be incapable to agree on anything for a few hundred years. The Polish kingdom wasn't conquered just so. To invite attack it first had to decay internally.

The Palestinians are a point in case. They are whiny Nationalists, too. While Israel has been anything but nice to them, they got no one to blame but themselves for about 40% of their troubles.

Not that the general whinyness makes the Polish fears of Prusso-Russian invasion any less real. History gives that fear credibility. How real is that today? Beside the point. It's a perceived threat, and mainly imaginary today. But it's a theme on which Polish politicos have an easy time making, because it resonates in their audience. Inevitably, you have a problem too, if people have a problem with you, or conjour one up. Silly thing is that the Poles go to cry and wail about their evil neighbours at America's soft bosom. And they get to hear what they want to hear: Easy, easy, poor boy. You are so right, Old Europe and Russia are bad. You were right to come to me for help.

Geez.

 

This may or may not be the case, but I think there may be more to it than that. There are nationalists everywhere from Vancouver to Vladivostok, but Poland seems to be in a rather curious situation right now.

So, don't we have any Poles on these boards? Please?

 

Chev is a Pole, dont know if you want to get him started on this and I havent seen him around lately.

 

Chev? I always thought he was French.

 

Nope, he's polish. And IIRC, there is another board member from Poland.


@Rags: German nationalists tend to be very whiny, too. Usually, they complain about territory lost to Poland, among other things...

 

First of all Well-met!

I am a guy from Poland that can answer your questions about our "beloved" government, why is nationalism so common in Poland, or is it? And I can always translate or give you new information about the Witcher because it is easier for me to read the "polish part of internet" than for you.

I will try address issues mentioned in those posts above in the next two days.

In the mean time If someone has any questions or likes to chat go ahead.

Regards,

Sznurowadlo

 

Yeah, could you shed some light on the case wether or not Tinky Winky was found guilty of being gay by the Polish council? Apparently that seemed to be a serious issue in Poland a few months ago, and i was curious how it ended.

 

That is territory they had taken from Poland first, to begin with. If they whine about the whereabouts of what they call Posen, that's basically the historical cradle of the Polish state. If they whine about Eastern Pomerania, tough luck. It was Polish more often than it was German until they took it in the course of the Partitions. Almost the same can be told about Western Pomerania, anyway.

If they want to whine about Silesia, they're out of luck as well. It was Polish from late 10th century to about 14th. Later, it came under Czech Suzerainty, which ultimately means Imperial (HRE, not German kingdom) suzerainty, but Polish dynasts remained as dukes, dying out gradually until the last one departed in 1685, leaving no legitimate offspring. The territory went to Habsburgs until it was taken away in the War of the Austrian Succession (+/- 1742 when they came there and didn't leave for a long time). Then we got some back in 1918, along with our independence. The rest we got after WW2. In all cases, German claims to Polish lands rely on the fact that they had taken them by force at some point in history.

As far as our neighbours go, we have friendly relations with the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Lithuania. Belarus doesn't count since Lukashenka is a nutcase. We have good relations with the opposition. Lithuania? No major beef and it's been sort of improving. As for Russia, come on. You've never had them come to your country, have you? (Not talking about former DDR parts of Germany). As for Germany, well, the wars weren't started by us. The last thing we actually started was in 11th century, preceded by trying to conquer us under the guise of sword-point conversion. And don't get me started on Teutonic Knights and their plentiful treachery. You wouldn't wish on any king the kind of vassals they were. Same can be said about Prussia, their successor and spiritual continuation.

As for the West, well, it's no secret they betrayed us in 1939, leaving us alone to face German invasion, and then again in 1945, selling us to Stalin at Yalta. We had a legal and constitutional government in exile, an own army and an own treasury, which was more than de Gaulle had to offer. But de Gaulle was French and we were Polish. Talk about racism. Think back in the Hundred Years War both sides were resorting to flattery to get our king's attention. Admittedly, Rags has it right that our useless nobles screwed up big time.

Americans? The supposed mutual love is way overrated. Remember Americans were at Yalta too. And after all the Iraq warring and the Afghanistan war before and what else, we still don't get the visa-less travel that they give freely to the French they hate. Again, we're not Anglo-Saxon, not Germanic, not Celtic, we're Slavs and that's the problem.

Internal politics? The last good government was in which century? Well, since our monarch almost became the HRE emperor in 1002, I guess it didn't suck back then.

The Kaczynski brothers? We've had worse, trust me. I'm no fan, but they're better than the Civic Platform of Tusk's cronies, who are mostly good at behaving like an insulted virgin for losing the elections some 1.5 years ago.

Giertych & co? Can't trust Roman Giertych, although he hasn't actually been a bad minister of education. He's a lawyer and has played some part in parliamentary commissions investigating some of the recent affairs. His father Maciej Giertych is a nutcase. He's marginal and he only gets any publicity because of being the father of Roman's. Giving him too much attention is a sign of ignorance on the part of Western journalists. It's like trying to focus on Peter Mandelson as representative of the whole of British politics, which no one sane would do. Western journalists and even some politicians are utter idiots anyway, since they would call the office of our president to ask about some marginal people talking stuff in newspapers. Come on, would they ever presume to call a German or French president because a marginal idiot said something stupid?

Oh, and we don't actually hate Germans. Or Jews. Or anyone. It's a product of bored sensation-seeking liberal journalists who could get a life one day. Doubt there's any more hostility towards the Germans in the Poles than the other way round, and this remembering all the invasions. We are, however, getting a lot of special feelings from the Western media. I really can't cease wondering how stupid some journalists can be, and some politicians. They typically have no idea what they're talking about, but from time to time, they do come up with something amazing. I guess utter ignorance of history is a major factor. But enough for now. Just remember to stick with major, respected news agencies. Not ****ty leftist journals that hate us because we don't have gay marriage or something.

Obviously, we have our own yard to look for culprits since a boatload of idiots flees after every flunked election to bitch to the EU bureaucracy about how evil and backwards the successors are. It's only that they don't realise that by that kind of moronic hysteria they're harming the whole country's image, not just the government. And since the country being in a bad shape is the top slogan in any party's election campaign, the worse it is, the better for them because the chance of rotation increases as elections come. Well, we have idiots from the right to the left and it doesn't look like this is going to change any time soon.

What mildly annoys me sometimes is people who go into that ****ty subservient attitude and prostrate themselves before Western press or some first best EU bureaucrat, as well as those who forget every country has its problems and we aren't special in that regard, which is part of the reason behind ****ty newspapers going to Poland for stuff they have in their own yard, and miss. But I'm begging to rant, it seems.

[ July 26, 2007, 02:57: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

Really? This news item should be passed on to the Colbert Report or the Daily Show for further "leftist" scrutiny. I know many Americans are concerned about the status of gay marriage in Poland - or anywhere else where marriage might be considered as "gay."

[ July 27, 2007, 01:19: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

Americans have enough with gay marriage in their own yard. You obviously missed the sarcasm part.

 

Sarcasim? Hey, I never said anything about marriage being gay.

 

The Shaman, check your PM.

 

Is that not the case in history pretty much allways. You can track land possessions down to ancient times until you find that the real owners were a third-party which were driven away from their lands and assimilated/genocided by some other culture. That's what makes terrotorial claims useless, as anyone can basically claim any terretory, I mean Finland could make claims over a big part of the Urals claiming it to be our ancestral homes. Hopefully though most people realize that the time for all sorts of terretorial claims is gone in Europe, going down that road again brings only war and misery for the people.

 

If that were true, then the only good title to land sovereignty would be currently having it de facto.

If Germans want to go by who conquered it first, then well, we can go back to 10th century and see. If they want to go by who conquered it last, then well, it's no longer in their country, meaning it's been conquered by someone else and either claimed or given away to a different country, ending discussion.

So how do you propose we validate the German claim to Polish territory?

I don't need to remind you that Poland has a bit of a round shape, so there are no far-off parts and the ancestral homes are both reasonably close to the current political centre and inhabited by Poles, in addition to current territorial sovereignty and historical claims. To want to take this away, would be the same as if the English suddenly decided they want Aquitaine or Poitou.

So where do we re-allocate Ile de France, Asturias, Essex and Aachen or Uppsala surroundings now?

 

Yeah, but does anyone actually bother about land reallocation between Poland and Germany right now? I can understand it if it boiled down to minority rights, cultural issues, or some such. However, while the "who occupied what when" argument does have some merit in informal discussions - heck, I have engaged in these happily enough - it seems rather out of place in a more or less official conversation.

This is what made me so curious. I can understand that some Poles might enjoy similar discussions, and I have no illusions that people to the south, west, east and probably north of Poland are any different in that regard. However, several instances of such statements from relatively high-ranked officials make me wonder why Poland is an outlier in this regard. I hate to sound callous, but it is not the only country that can find reasons to find itself historically slighted by its neighbors. So I am surprised that Polish nationalists seem notably more vocal, and apparently represented, than those of other countries.

 

Pretty much all disputes are solved on the basis of factual control, but it's despite the (lack of) title rather than a title itself - while claims are more based on a (legal) title, since they by definition refer to something from the past. So you can't really derive much of a title from possession, even if you most typically get to keep it.

Some German activists won't get over the fact that the land they once controlled is returned to Poland now. We have both a better (older) title and factual possession (not just military control, but exclusively Polish inhabitants), but they still want to return things to pre-1945 or pre-1918 shape. It looks like they believe the land should be given to them just because they want it.

 

Exactly.

We aren't supposed to validate those, they are claims of minority groups that can and should be ignored. The de facto terretories are the ones that count and the ones that should be held on to. We lost quite a bit of land to Russia after Winter War and it was unjust, but realizing that these lands are not Finnish anymore is accepting the difference between current and historical realities.