Abortion

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So, what you think about it?

 

A good thing, give's mothers the choice.

 

Yes, women must have the right do decide for themselves. In the netherlands this is no longer an issue.

 

Ezellohar, are you TRYING to start a fight?

I was tempted to just ignore this one, but couldn't resist.

Question ... when does life begin?

Does it begin at conception? When brain activity starts? When a "being" is able to breath oxygen on "its" own? When "it" is able to take care of itself?

You have to decide that first, because once you do, then you are able to draw a line between abortion and murder.

In America, we have a practice called "Partial Birth abortion". They induce labor in the woman, allow 90% of the baby to be delivered through the birth canal, and then, at the last moment, they use surgical scissors to pierce the skull, and destroy the brain.

This is a procedure called D&X

I have a tough time calling that a "free choice every woman should be able to make."

Ok, that is an extreme procedure, and I did include it for shock value. However, this is a shocking reality that we are ignoring.

How many millions of people have been killed while the world stands around playing politics and talking about choice. I'm sure very similar rationalizations were floating around the German country-side while the Jewish, handicapped and politically incorrect folk were marched to the Concentration Camps.

Yeah, I know that most of you will disagree with me, and it is your choice to do so. Just please, think about when life begins, then follow your decision to the logical consequence.

 

Choice as in,

"My family has turned their backs, I can't afford maternity clothes, rent or food, so I feel I only have one option?"

or as in,

"If my mum and dad find out I'm pregnant, they won't love me anymore, so I'd better do this quick"?

or as in,

"If I don't have an abortion, my boyfriend says he'll leave me, and I love him so I have to do this"?

Those kind of choices?

I volunteered for five years in a clinic for women/girls with "unwanted" pregnancies and never met one, not one, that didn't hope someone would help her out financially and emotionally so she didn't "have" to have an abortion. The examples I gave above are what we heard, over and over and over until our hearts broke. Saying, "let her choose" is an easy way to say, "her baby is not my problem". If you've offered her clothing, food, shelter and love, and she still wants an abortion... then you're off the hook. Otherwise, by recommending abortion, you've left the most vulnerable and valuable kind of human being in the world- a pregnant woman- in the most dreadful dilemma imaginable.

The other side of the coin was the women who called us all the time to see if we knew any unwanted babies they could have, because they'd tried for years and their time was running out. On the one hand, poor women were destroying babies that were desperately wanted (by themselves or other women) because they didn't have the resources to support themselves in pregnancy, and on the other hand, homes that already had cribs and changing tables and all the love in the world ready stayed baby-less because our society finds abortion more morally acceptable than adoption. If you don't find that sad, I have to wonder where your heart is.

 

Mathetais, when I say this I'm not thinking of you (as a seemingly-intelligent person whose well-considered opinion isn't the same as mine) but of the far right-wing, hyper-Christian, anti-everything faction that wants to deny all reality outside of four church walls...

Oh, if only the people who want to ban abortions weren't also bent upon banning birth control at the same time! There's no better way to cut down on the number of abortions performed than to prevent them from being needed in the first place.

That said, keep the procedures safe and legal. Let the woman - and anyone else SHE chooses to involve - make the decision as to whether or not to avail herself of that option.

 

Sprite ... I agree 100%. I used to work for a woman's clinic that didn't offer abortions, just consuling and then referrals. I'd go to high schools talking about abortion, abstinence and birth control. It was amazing some of the stories that Freshmen in High School had about these topics. Broke my heart.

Rallymama ... my Christian brothers sometimes give my King a bad name. I'm in the same denomination as a minister who shot an abortion doctor. Not an acceptable option. I'm very pro-birth control (I've had a vasectomy, it doesn't get much more controlled than that).

Here's the thing ... as strongly as I speak against abortion, I speak as strongly against stupid people who just say "Ban it!" and refuse to get off their butts.

I was in a church group where the leader did a talk on abortion, and closed with a 10 min. video that showed people pulling aborted fetuses out of a dumpster behind a planned parenthood. It turned my stomach ... but what is worse is that a girl in the crowd had recently had an abortion. This christian leader didn't preach grace, forgivness or love, just law, intolerance and knee-jerk reactions. The Gospel of Grace is all about forgiving broken people and healing a broken world. Abortion is a pretty big tear in the fabric of our world, and the "Godly" response is to offer love, money, clothes, food, shelter, diapers, support, etc, etc to those in need, even if they've made mistakes.

 

I read in a newspaper about how they do abortion and I have to admit, that it is the only thing, what made me feel sick. Just sick. I just cried and even couldn't eat anything, because I felt so bad. I think it would be acceptable only, when the mother is too young(13-15) and both wouldn't survive.

My 2 cents. And I am not trying to start a fight.
I just want to know, what other people think.

 

When life begins is irrelevant in my opinion.

We have no qualms about killing a pig and it's alive (well, most of us don't.)

I anticipate someone saying there is a difference between a human life and a pig life so, the question is when does human life begin?

That's also irrelevant in my opinion.

Imagine this example: Yoda comes down to earth. We chat, have some tea and biscuits, then we kill him. Is that acceptable? The answer is in my opinion obviously no. Why is it not acceptable, Yoda isn't human?

I think that example shows that we realize there is no necessary connection between having the right to life and and being human. Like there is no necessary connection between the right to life and being alive (pigs and plants are alive until we kill them right?)

I think it is better to question when something becomes a person. Yoda fits the understanding of being a person in my opinion as does, just for an example, the Pope, Mariah Carey, Brett Favre etc.

Is this something we can agree on? Personhood is the key and not your genetic code.

 

To all you people against abortion:
What about women who have been raped? Is it right to make them have a child that is the direct result of a crime comitted against their person? how fair to the victim is that? Have any of you ever met a rape victim? I have and and it's not a pleasant thing to hear recounted.

 

Atreides, I'd like to jump in real quick here. Rape is a very small subset of the total number of all abortions.

I have known someone who was raped and became pregnant.

I think it probably better to discuss it in a more general context first and then talk about if there exceptions.

 

Ezellohar:

Yeah. Those "medical" pictures can be very disturbing.

What is important, Eze, is that you never have to make that decision.

Literally.

This doesn't make "you cannot ever have sex". It means this is something you need to address ahead of time.

If you are a devout Roman Catholic, then the Pope has already decreed that you can use the "Rythum Method", and that's it.

If you are a little more open in your views, then you have many options.

Progesterone/Estrogen tablets. Condoms. Spermacide inserts. Diaphrams. Spermacide "sponge" inserts. Vasectomy. Tubal Ligation.

This is part of being a responsible adult. You must weigh the consequences. You can reduce the "risk" of becomming pregnant (to an extraordinary degree, if you use several methods together), but it must always be an issue. Hopefully, your partner AND you will address the issue together.

As far as abortion goes, I fall under the "pro-abortion" category. But my little fantasy world has some twists in that "pro-abortion" category.

I'm just crazy like that.

 

I am pro-choice. Not like the guy has any choice in the matter...But I believe women have the right to choose whether or not to end their pregnancy.

The only time I would be against abortion is if it were used as a contraceptive measure...

.................................................

One thing I don't get is the fervor over abortion in general though. This may seem callous, but I feel better about aborting a fetus much more than killing someone who is already alive. By alive, I mean walking around living and doing stuff.

This may be difficult to explain in writing, but I'll give it a try. A fetus has no history, no existence, per se. It hasn't had any experiences, made relationships, fell in love, failed a math test, stubbed its toe, etc...So I don't place it in the category of "alive" in my meaning of the word.

I've always thought the greater tragedies are the deaths of children and adults in everyday life. Whether they died by war, disease, crime, violence, or whatever! People that had friends, families, and impacted the world in some way, however small. These people had a story to tell: About their lives, trials, challenges, hardships and triumphs. Why is it people are not outraged by war, but ending the life of a fetus causes people such angst?

With that said...and I'm sure I'll catch it from more than a few of you. When it comes right down to it...I believe the woman has the choice. And she has to live with the choice she makes.

 

(removed rant)

Leave it up to people to decide, but my advice to anyone thinking of doing this would be to speak to someone who has

[ December 03, 2002, 20:08: Message edited by: Vermillion ]

 

Abortion and Incest ... thats where many people allow abortion ... however those two very small percentages are keeping the door open for hundreds of thousands of people, some of whom use abortion as birth-control.

 

At Laches:
All right, I'll back down from my "rape" arguement for the present. However, I felt that I needed to point something like that out before everyone got completely diverted.
And now to my post:
I'm pro-choice period. There is a time that I believe that carrying out an abortion is wrong however (after six months specifically, if the woman in question can't make up her mind before then she should have the baby and either keep it or put it up for adoption.) Anyway, I'm not going to start ranting about this yet.

 

Atreides, not to draw you into the debate, but I've heard the 6 month thing before and am wondering what's magic about the 6th month?

Is that when personhood is established, or is it just easier to kill something that is too small to look human?

Just curious.

Oh, and Bel, I get fired up because we are sitting around playing video games while a holocost is going on around us. I have to walk past a Planned Parenthood building everyday on my way to and from work ...

 

My opinion will probably account for nothing - but I'll put it forward anyway

Parents will often want an abortion if they discover the baby is severly disabled - whether it isn't growing properly or they notice deformaties that will cause problems and won't give the child a life without bullies and torment.

Sometimes if the person is too young, There is a 14 year old - and there are suspitions, especially as she has gone missing recently, has collapsed in school and is often off ill.

Sometimes people discover they are pregnant and can't deal with it. They don't know what to do and don't want the prospect of sending the child away to be adopted where anything could happen.

At the end of the day - they have a choice. I think there should perhaps be a system where they are given about a month to decide whether or not they still want to go ahead with the operation. It is their choice and if it's what they really want then we have no right to stop them. It is a difficult thing to decide - something that takes careful thinking. If you know someone who is thinking of having an abortion the best you can do is support them in whatever decision and not to argue with them, to decide to go ahead will be stressful enough. If you offer help they may change their minds knowing they have support and help when they need it

 

What is life??
Occupation of a body by a soul, having free will, activity in the brains?? I can only answer that question if I knew what life exactly is..

But with the idea I have of life now..
what if it is the only chance for life the unborn child has.. your just taking that away, simply because of reasons which are only important for yourself.. daddy will get mad, boyfriend will run away, rape..

Ain´t stealing life away from something wich haven´t even the chance to taste it, a greater sin than murder?? The only mistake which the unborn made was being created in you and yet people who steal, rape, murder, cheat, etc, get lesser punishment than the unlucky unborn

Those are my two penny´s

But maybe in situations I havent thought abortion is for the best, maybe...

[ December 03, 2002, 21:15: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

How would you like being aborted? Hmm? Hey, your mom's body, your mom's choice.