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A good Melee Rogue build without Min/Maxing?

Discussion in 'Pillars of Eternity' started by Amdis, May 11, 2015.

  1. Amdis

    Amdis Note to self, claws are not toothpicks

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    * As the Topic title mentions, I am looking for a good balanced Melee Rogue build with out min maxing. Since I do not play on hard and up ( Not so far at least. ) their is no need for min maxing in my opinion.

    * I have a ranged Rogue and I certainly like him, but on the OE forums I some times see people mention that a Melee Rogue is even more dangerous then a ranged one. Now curious as I am< I would like to try and see whether that is true or not.

    * Now I am well aware that a Melee Rogue is not a tank, but I hope some of you know a good balanced Melee Roguee build that will not go down in 1 or 2 hits? But at the same time He/She would be able to make sure the enemy is aware how dangerous a Rogue can be up close?
     
  2. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Check out this link to a very new thread on the obsidian PoE forum. While the build was for a Hard difficulty, it was by no means excessively min-maxed.


    https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79375-class-build-dual-wielding-stiletto-rogue/

    Quick and dirty:

    Human, Living Lands (for the +1 Might):

    Stats:

    20/8/18/14/10/8 MIG/CON/DEX/PER/INT/RES

    The guy's build was built around creating a dual stiletto wielding melee rogue that was all about crits, fast attacks, and DR bypass (hence, the stilettos).

    I'll leave the rest of the details for you to read in the linked thread.
     
  3. Keneth Gems: 29/31
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    You're gonna miss out on a lot of conversation options without Int or Res though. You can buff them if you know when to expect them, but that requires consistent metagaming.

    As for whether or not melee rogue is more deadly, you'll apply more pressure but fewer spikes. Also, no matter how good your gear is, you'll be pretty squishy, so you need tanks with you.
     
  4. Amdis

    Amdis Note to self, claws are not toothpicks

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    Well I do not want to Dumpstat with a Rogue. With my Ranged Rogue I did set Res to 9, but later in the game I some what regretted doing even that to my Rogue. So when I start trying out a Melee Rogue then I want to keep stats at 10+, not below.

    That build you linked to looks like a strong one. But as I mentioned to some one on the OE forums who suggested a Hearth Orlan (Living Lands) with 18/3/18/18/3/18 ... Rogues have little health to begin with so lowering it even more does not look like a good idea in my opinion?

    Now both the build you linked to and the stats the other person mention look like the would indeed be beasts, but He/She will get hit sooner or later whether I want it or not. And that would end my Rogue very quickly I guess? Now as I mentioned before ... I know very well that a Melee Rogue is no tank and should never be used as such. I am getting the feeling that a Melee Rogue is a difficult character to set up and play?

    Well once I do start with a Melee Rogue I plan to make an Adventurer Fighter ( Or maybe Barbarian. ), so together with Edér that should increase the chances.
     
  5. Keneth Gems: 29/31
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    It's not that difficult to play. Use a ranged weapon for your opening shot while your tanks grab aggro from the enemies, then position yourself to flank and watch mobs drop.

    Just don't get yourself surrounded or attacked by more than one enemy at the time and you should be fine, assuming you use buffs and pots to keep you alive and well.
     
  6. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    I don't recall that there'd really be any difference between a character with 8 in a stat and 10 in that same stat. And the problem if one is looking to maximize talking options, you end up with a crapload of points in PER, INT, and RES, and not a lot else. You end up with an all talk, no fight character.


    Also note that there's a difference between a build with major stat dumps down to 3, and one with minor ones down to a mere 8.


    FYI, you're not wrong when you think that melee rogues are difficult to set up and play. I've seen a lot of other people more familiar with the game than I say the same thing.

    But if you're really want to give one a try, why not pick a more easily playable PC, and then hire on a melee rogue mercenary. This way you can give one a try without having to worry about the rogue missing out on dialog options.

    In my last party, I hired a rogue for my party, because I wanted a dedicated traps and locks specialist. The rogue was a ranged combatant though, not a melee sneak attacking specialist. And in spite of everything, including being about 3/4's to 1 level behind the rest of the party for nearly the entire run-through, she ended up 2nd on the team in damage, only trailing my PC monk.
     
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    Should have sent your rogue on an adventure or two. They usually yield more XP than your party's questing (not sure what the ratio is now after the latest patch though).
     
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  8. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Try a 14/10/16/14/10/14 MIG/CON/DEX/PER/INT/RES build.
    I see no reason to max out might on a rogue if you're not playing on hard (frankly, I wouldn't even bother with minmaxing unless I'm playing ironman). I'm pretty sure you can even play a 10/10/16/16/10/16 rogue if you really wanted. Lots of dialogue options there, and solid deflect if you dual-wield handaxes (always keep one set on your quickchange slot). With debuffs you'll be able to hold your own against all but a few particularly powerful individuals. Just keep a Chanter/Wizard/Cleric around to reduce enemy DR and you're fine. Get Durance ASAP before you go dungeon exploring. Pick Hearth Orlan for crits.

    I've played a dual-wielding Hearth Orlan chanter with 10 might and he was already more than capable of generating a steady stream of high damage normal attacks/crits with just Savage Attack + buffs. Rogues get sneak attack + other rogue feats on top of that, so I wouldn't worry about DPS. Dual-wielding is really more about quantity over quality, and once you start using weapon damage enchantments/buffs (like the chanter flaming weapon chant or Durance's buffs) it shows. You can worry about optimization after you've tried out your rogue, by then you should be able to figure out yourself how much survivability you're willing to trade for offense.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
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  9. Amdis

    Amdis Note to self, claws are not toothpicks

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    That is not a bad idea, thank you Crucis. :)

    Oddly enough it has not come that far yet with my Ranged Rogue, I will have to look into that.

    Thank you for all of that Paracelsi. :)

    Again thank you, it seems like I really need to stop thinking about certain stats like I did in the BG / IWD and Neverwinter series. Guess I will have to experiment more. :)
     
  10. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Honestly, I was afraid that if I dismissed her from my party, she'd go away, rather than just sit in the stronghold. I didn't know one way or the other.

    Regardless, she ended up just as maxed out as the rest of the party. She just got there a little later.
     
  11. Tassadar Gems: 23/31
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    Is perception an important stat? Or is dex/str more important?
     
  12. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Perception affects accuracy (chance to hit, crits) and is incredibly useful for getting specific dialogue options to show, so yeah I'd say it's important. Whether it's more important than Might or Dex depends on playstyle, attackers will want more while defenders won't need as much.

    On a PC rogue, Per>Dex>Might. Thing is, rogues already do massive damage with just feats/items and as the PC you'll want a balance between DPS and survivability, because the game seems to like throwing you in front of everyone else before combat.
    On an NPC rogue, Per=Might=Dex. If you're hiring an NPC rogue, then you're doing it purely for the class' massive single target damage output (because all the other NPCs have everything else covered). Since no one expects this character to tank and since this character won't be participating in any dialogue interactions, then there's really no reason not to max all three.
     
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    Thanks! I've kept mine at around 15. One other thing, does PER affect chances to detect traps? Or is that calculated solely from the mechanics skill?
     
  14. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Nope. That's pure mechanics (which gets bonuses from class, background, items and a few other non-Perception related stuff).
     
  15. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Perception is the number one stat for Rogues. Rogues are built to crit. Perception increases your chance to hit, which increases your chance to crit. Might ends up only adding a small amount in the late game to your Rogue's DPS. Perception and Speed rule the day. You can easily be at a zero recovery rate between attacks with a Rogue, critting like crazy and still be in decent armor once you Durgan Reinforce your armor and weapons. Sabre and stiletto or rapier and dagger or a pike for reach attacks are all excellent choices.
     
  16. xosmi Gems: 20/31
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    Yeah, i don't think i've ever built a rogue with less then 18 in perception in PoE.
    I usually go for moon godlikes to offset how darn squishy rogues are, but I also really like using Hearth orlans for my rogues, since they convert 10% of their Hits into Crits if attacking the same enemy as another party member.

    Sabres are really deadly - especially the combo of the unique ones : purgatory (+0.5 to crit multiplier) and resolution (20% of grazes become critical hits) doubly so when enhanced with durgan steel.
    For the more squishy rogue build (orlan) i prefer going with Pikes, Tall grass specifically since it converts 10% of your hits into crits, and when you do crit you have a chance it knocks an enemy prone.
    Gun builds worked before 2.0, but as the game is now the only really viable ranged option is the Borresaine war bow with it's stun on crit. Realy sfe option too, though you won't be doing as much DPS as you'll have to sacrifice a good portion of might to grab some int. (for the longer stun duration.)
     
  17. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Hunting bows are best these days. Persistence and Stormcaller are amazing. Stormcaller is a monster in a Rangers hands. Persistence is bestial in a Rogues hands.
     
  18. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Some thoughts in reply to the more recent posts.


    1. PER and then DEX are probably the two most important stats for a rogue, regardless of what the game says. It's nice to have a decent Might, but not critical. You want a super high PER because perception provides bonuses to accuracy and interrupts. Accuracy is critical for rogues so that they can generate critical hits. And interrupts are an extremely nice secondary benefit, since you can use a rogue as your designated interrupter, whether he's a melee or ranged rogue. Also, Perception is a fairly often used dialog option, so if your rogue is your PC, a super high PER will be beneficial for dialogs as well.

    After PER and DEX, I'd try to put some points into Might and Resolve, if you can find them. MGT and RES don't need to be particularly high for a Rogue but at the same time, it doesn't hurt either. One can afford to drop CON and INT down to 8 without any serious downsides. (I suppose you could go lower on INT if you don't object to extreme min-maxing, but some do.)



    2. Might isn't hugely important for Rogues because overall, Rogues are going to rely more on generating critical hits to do their heavy damage than from doing it through normal hits. This is why Rogues want very high PER scores, because the higher one's accuracy is, the more likely you'll get critical hits.


    3. Sabers are very nice weapons. No question about it. However, I strongly suggest that one not discount the value of daggers and stilettos, particularly against enemies who don't have particularly high DR's. As Fast weapons, you'll get in more attacks than you will with sabers which are Average speed weapons. Pikes aren't bad for Rogues (though they're Slow weapons) if you don't want to get too close to the enemy. And yes, the Tall Grass pike is really nasty with a rogue.


    4. Ranged weapons: Borresaine is a nasty weapon with a Rogue due to his ability to get crits and stun enemies. OTOH, Vanatar is not wrong to say that the Persistence hunting bow is absolutely beastly for rogues, due to its special effects and it being a Fast weapon. Plus, you can get Persistence fairly early in the game, and it will hold its own throughout the entire game, even without being further enchanted.

    Xosmi makes a good point about INT and Borresaine's stun duration. Personally, I don't think that I'd build a ranged rogue around using Borresaine (i.e. trading Might for INT for longer stun durations). That just seems too limiting to me, but to each his own.

    On a side note, the Cloudpiercer warbow is also very nice, largely due to its Jolting Tough on crit effect. However, the downside is that it's only triggered ONCE per encounter, so its value is limited. Worse, I learned that using Cloudpiercer to open a battle against a single spotted enemy, and getting a crit to trigger the Jolting Tough is annoying because JT's lightning damage ends up only hurting the single target you see. If you have Cloudpiercer, you're almost better off waiting for more enemies to show up before you fire so that you don't expend a JT on a single enemy.
     
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