2 News Items

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2 items on the news really p*ssed me off today. And they both take place in America.

1. This kid that got expelled for taking a gun into school, now at first i thought, well fair enough that is sensible action to take. but then i found out the kid was a TODDLER!
Ok the problem is not the fact that the parents neglected their child, obviously they are bad parents, however what gets me is that now they have been warned it will probably never ever happen again. Yet the kid is expelled????? This child is only three and now has it's recored tarneshed for ever because it did something completely by accident. If it had been handled properly then they could have just searched the childs bag when it arrived at school. for god's sake that may be a hassle but it's better than ruining the poor child's school life!

2. I watched the ceremony at ground zero in the U.S today. A very sobering experience, and full respect to all those people who have worked so hard for the last almost 9 months. And condolences to those families who are still grieving. However, some of those families that have still yet to find their loved ones are British, Canadian, African etc....
The empty strecher that was used to represent the unfound victims was draped in an American Flag. This brings out my ONLY criticism of the American handling of this situation. Half of the staff in the Two towers were from other countries, therfore it is only sensible to assume that half the people still in the rubble are foreign. therefore i find a mark of disrespect to my country and everyone elses that the flag was American. It also bugs me that this has now become the great AMERICAN tragedy, in the media.

Ok so you can say that each country that has still got lives unaccounted for can have it's own ceremonies, but this was at the site....this was where it happened. I certainly would not like my spirit to be mourned under the shadow of an American flag (unless i was American)..

Please note that i am not having a go at America in the same way many do on these boards, I would say the same for any country. But hey maybe i am wrong, maybe i have not understood the situation...? Your opinions on my views please?

 

I doubt HALF of the victims were not American, but yes i see your point. It was the WORLD trade center, not just the US. And about that kid, these things happen.

 

I agree completely with Sir Dargorn, and my sincere regrets to any who have lost a loved one that dreadful day. But saying that it was America's dreadful day isnt right as Sir Dargorn said above, as it is several people form several nationalities who died both on the airliners or in the building itself.

I am not quite sure how i agree with the US's handling of the situation, but i am quite concerned over the sincerity given over the victims as they are draped in an American flag..as to whether they want to say "this is america, we will take in any lost soul and so welcome you to our country". That seems nice, logical explanation; but why then are so many refugees/immigrants refused entry?
Or are they just trying to make themselves look good in the eyes of America's Public???

I may completely be off-track here, correct me if i'm wrong - no offence meant.

 

1.)
I agree with you. My veiws on gun control are simple: Teach everyone how to correctly use and handle a gun, and these school shootings wouldnt have happened.
It is the parents negligence that allowed the child to bring the gun to school, not the childs fault, three years old and expelled...abit harsh concidering the kid probably didnt even know what a gun was, other than something that made a loud sound.

2.)
I havent been watching the news recently(or any T.V. for that fact) so I had no knowledge of the Ground Zero ceremony. But it is sad that America is being so arrogant as to think that it is only an American issue. A flag for each country should have been draped across the stretcher.

[edit]
Gopher, 9/11 is being written off by the media as an American Tragedy. That didnt mean that other countries didnt have people die.
I think the reason behind American thinking of it as an American tragedy is because it happened on U.S. soil. But that doesnt excuse the arrogence.[/i]

[This message has been edited by DeBhaal Stasion (edited May 30, 2002).]

 

Well the kid getting expelled from school isn't really a big thing, it's just one kid. The big thing is how three-year-olds in America have guns! (Whee! *bang* *bang* Ha ha, I hit you! ...silence... Mark? Mark? Oh my god, I killed Mark! Me bastard!)

What next? Infants given a gun as their first toy, just in case evil nurses try to steal them? Seriously, any aliens attacking America would be in serious trouble, with every single person having a gun, not to even mention people living in Texas.

 

Actually Volar the kid had absolutley no idea that it had the gun, it had picked up the wrong bag by mistake.... poor little chap.

 

I have never disagreed with a thread so much in my life! On the first part ... yeah, its not the kid's fault.
On the second point ... oh my gosh. What skyscraper in the UK got blown to bits? How many British firefighters charged into the building to rescue people?

I appreciate the fact that other countries suffered casualties in the 9/11 tragedy. I also am very grateful for British support as we handed Afghanistan their collective butts in retaliation.

HOWEVER ... you can't say everything every time you say anything or you end up saying nothing at all. (In simple English, if we tried to represent every group, the ceremony would have been clumsy and lost its impact.) I think we can agree that over 60% of this tragedy fell upon America and this ceremony, on American soil with predominately American rescue workers, was not in bad taste at all.

The only thing I think to be in bad taste is to throw stones ....

[This message has been edited by Mathetais (edited May 30, 2002).]

 

Look Mat, i appreciate your point of view. However i am not throwing stones. this is not a reason for you to jump up and defend America against invaders it is a disscussion about the ceremony.
I think the ceremony would have had MORE impact if it had represented all the countries insatead of just America. Look i know it hapened on American soil but it was no coincidence that Osama chose those buildings, he did not choose them for the greatest damage or to hurt the Ameircans (sears tower or Empire state would have done a better job), He did it t hurt the WESTERN WORLD! The Taliban are burning american and BRITISH flags over there. The fact is that Osama wanted to gain international outrage by destroying the lives of people from every nation. If those towers were in Britain he would have bombed them there!
So what bugs me is that you have totally forgotten the real purpose of the bombing and turned it into the great American 9/11 (god how sad is THAT abbreviation?) tragedy!

 

I didn't see the ceremony to which you refer, Sir Dargorn, but I can understand your reaction. In response to the point about the firefighters of 9/11 all being American- Actually, lots of non-American firefighters were in the wreckage of the World Trade Centre by the end of day 9/11. Canada sent hundreds during that terrible day and the following week, and although I don't know the stats for Britain I'm sure they sent some too- I can't imagine a country that would have been more supportive in the wake of the catastrophe than Britain was. I lived in England during a period rich in terrorist attacks and bomb threats (I lived a ten-minute walk from Harrods when it was bombed), and and I don't recall ever seeing American (or other) firefighters going to Britain following an IRA bombing. Much less sending their armed forces to overthrow the government of Northern Ireland for harbouring terrorists. Not that this would have been expected- just that Britain, and other countries, did show tremendous loyalty and generosity when America was the victim, and it would have been nice to see that recognised.

Any number of American journalists have written some variant on, "This wasn't an attack on America, it was an attack on freedom". A cluster of flags would have been a nice touch to recognise that the victims and heroes were from all over the world.

Oh - I do realise that it wasn't the IRA that bombed Harrods, but since I can't remember the name of the group that did, I'll make an example of it anyway.

 

An interesting post.

As far as the school expulsion thing goes, I think the "zero tolerance" approach employed in the US is an excuse to not think critically or use discretion. (Zero tolerance refers to the paractice of expelling students for bringing "weapons" to school, no questions asked). There was an honors student here in Kansas City ready to graduate with a scholarship to college and a great academic career who was expelled for driving his pick-up to school with a knife in the rear bed left over from a BBQ/picnic. Now he's lost his scholarship and his diploma and has to get a GED. There was also a young girl, maybe in first grade, expelled from school for bringing a nail clipper with one of those swing out nail files to school. I hardly think these are the types of people who deserve scrutiny or such punishments. There isn't just a crisis with violent students in the US, but also with incompetent staff without the psychological sophistication to spot potential problems resorting to overinclusive policies punishing many potential contributors to society. I'm aware of the arguments on the other side, but this is my view on it.

As for foreign nationals in the WTC, of course there were. Its undeniable and who would want to? However, as many foreign nationals who may have perished in the attack, I think its safe to say that no other nation suffered an injury of the same magnitude to its national psyche as the US did in this particular attack. Further, no other nation bore the burden of the economic losses and loss in productivity, property and caputal as the US did. It would be like the destruction of a medium size town, all of its citizens, its visitors, its industry and productivity-just gone. I don't want to argue about who got burned, or how many other nations deal with terrorism on a daily basis. In the US we don't, and when it happens of course it deeply affects us. I don't know about the news referring to the WTC as "America's tragedy", though, I haven't heard that. The only thing in the news I don't like is that all those who perished are referred to as heroes, not just the rescue crews but everyone. They aren't heroes. They died tragically. If they were heroes they would have chosen their tragic fate or at least knowingly took the risks. They went to work like everyone else does and were murdered. They're not heroes, they're victims. To celebrate them as heroes diminishes the tragic nature of the event.

 

This topic has got me madder than anything I've seen since when we had that stupid crap in Florida a few years ago with the that Gonzalez kid. Sorry if I rant for a moment, but this is all political correctness bullsh*t!
A pre-schooler gets tossed out of school for carrying a gun? Gimme a damn break. The kids PARENTS should be forced to attend an NRA sanctioned course on firearms safety! Untill They get it well enough to teach it, if needed! If the PARENTS of this child had checked their kid's gear before they left the house in the morning, NONE of this would have happened. A zero tolerance policy isn't what is needed. Any zero tolerance policy is just the 'politically correct' way of saying that we (society) will not take responsibility for anybody. How in the hell a gun got into a pre-schoolers backpack, let alone their hands is beyond me. Too damn many of our kids get dead because someone, somewhere, somehow gives them access to a firearm. I learned this first hand in 5th grade when one of my classmates blew his head off "just playing" with his dad's revolver. It was a closed casket funeral. I do not advocate banning guns, far from it. But for god's sake keep it out of reach, and out of sight. Put the bullets where only someone responsible has access. Above all, take some damn responsibility for yourself and admit that you screwed up. If you cannot, then DO NOT bring a firearm into your house. YOU are obviosly not responsible enough. It doesn't matter where your'e born, where you come from, it matters where your HEAD is at. I'm pretty certain that this kind of thing is a global one, considering that we see photos of kids with guns worldwide.

I would also like to give my condolences to those who lost loved ones on 9/11. Worldwide. The ceremony was in honor of all those who perished on AMERICAN soil. Simple and to the point. To be PC, they could've run the emergency sevices vehicle through the UN building area. Yet they chose to go back to quarters. How strange that they should want to go back to living.
I would also like to point out that basically the only thing that has changed since that terrible day is that the amount of bullsh*t the travelling public has to put up with. Political correctness being the evil that it is, our government, instead of getting to the root of the problem, decided that it should stick OUR heads in it's ass. Instead of rounding up the ILLEGAL aliens and deporting them,they choose to make CITIZENS and LEGAL aliens in this country go through hours upon hours of bullsh*t everytime they want or need to travel. Last time I went to school, illegal meant CRIMINAL. Let's get these damn criminals out of the country! They do not belong here.
Our government basically wants US taxpayers to pony up for evrything. I would have to say that ALL our politicians are liberal! I don't care if they are Republican, Democrat, whatever. Hell, more likely they could be part of the thieves guild in Athkatla. But they are all liberal. Liberal with your money, mine and anybody else's hard earned cash. Don't think so? These are the same people who vote themselves payraises at the drop of a hat, spend OUR money unwisely, and give it away to people who do not put into the system. Then have the balls to tell ME that they cannot do what is really necessary,with the money they have? Just so they don't offend someone? Get your hands out of my damn pocket already! What is wrong with this picture ? I for one, refuse to stick my head in the sand.I think the only thing that political correctness got us was thousands dead on 9/11.
I thank you for your letting me stand on the soapbox. Now I believe I will go back to BG2, and have a beer at the Copper Coronet.

 

Hey, I didn't mean to start a bruhaha here ... my point is that the ceremony in question was very American, 432 American Firefighters died and not all of the bodies were found. The US Flag on the empty stretcher was mostly for them .... other ceremonies can be held for the international community. This one was personal. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

the ceremony was for the rescue-workers, not those in the towers or on the planes.

[deity edity] donovan, that comment underneath is completely unnecessary and undeserved, whether people's opinions are counter to your own views or not. i agree with sir dargorn, below.

[This message has been edited by the god (edited May 31, 2002).]

 

I think most who posted on this topic should go to hell.

To clear everyone up on the facts... the empty stretcher was for the police and firemen that were lost. Another service with the last piece of the Trade Center draped in an American flag was for everyone who lost their lives.

The events that happen on 9/11 are one of the most tragic events in history, and America is trying to deal with it the best way we can. To say it pisses you off that we did not use everyone's flag shows that you do not see the larger picture. We mourn for everyone that lost their life... but it was an attack on America. If the Trade Center was anywhere else it would still be standing. They attacked us. If they had hit the Sears tower or the Empire State it would have been just as terrible... but they are not as entrenched into the American psyche as the Trade Center. They were attacking the American way of life, and attacked something that most American hold dear.

The American flag stands for freedom... to us there is no other symbol that represents that better... if you want a world cermony then why doesn't the United Nations hold a service. If another country wanted to pay homage to their lost... then why don't they come to the site and give a memorial. Don't talk about our arrogance when other nations have not done a memorial at the site. If other nations want to do something in their home countries then that fine... but why do you expect America to please everyone? Does your country?

 

Sprite, the US has sent more peacekeeping help to N. Ireland than any country in the world. And they didn't even have thousands dying all at once. No one said others didn't help in the clean-up. But those resuce workers didn't die. Amazing the brazen ignoring of logic you'll sink to in order to bash Americans. Even the Poodle Puppy wasn't going that far.

It would have been a smart tactical move on the U.S.'s part to have flags from other countries -- if the ceremony had been for allof those killed as opposed to the rescue workers killed. But it wasn't.

 

/me enters this messy topic only to say:

Very well spoken, Donovan. I fully agree.

/me backs cautiously out of the thread with her flame repellent +4 shield equipped.

 

Ok this topic has turned from a disscussion topic where people who can tell me exactly what is goign wrong to explain it to me.

people like donovan and Damona are not helpful by personally telling me to go to hell. I think it is pretty certain that this was an attack on the free world not just america so you are talking rubbish. but that is not the topic, the topic is about the ceremony, and now that God has answered my question ()thanks god for explaining so simply) we don't need you all righteous americans running in all guns blazing.

end of topic........please

 

You started it!

That's a bloody brit for you ... always starting a fight that the Americans have to finish.

Just kidding you Poodle
Sorry that I started the fireworks ... but this really hit a hot button for me!

 

I don't imagine any button on you would be anything other than hot, Math.

Poodle, you had to expect some sort of defensive or explanatory reaction from people on this. If you didn't, than you're a fool.

 

Fool!? for goodness sake there is so much nastiness on this board. STOP IT! You are all so bloody vindictive. Yes i was wrong on the second point. Good! glad we sorted that out, the first point is a good disscussion topic! There was no need after The_God had explained for other Americans to tell me to go to hell. And i am not being a pompous British man either! I am dissapointed by my behaviour last year but now i have GROWN UP! i no longer take cheap pot shots at America and i don't expect it from my fellow country men nor do i expect from Americans ENOUGH!

Btw read what i put at the bottom Xen and Mat, no i did not start an argument about AMERICA, and no i did not expect juviniele reactions. Sorry.