Rogue-centric 6 character party

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Well, I've had IWD2 for years now, and haven't yet gotten around to finishing the game. So, I decided to make a fresh party and power my way through. I read the UPP and JUPP guides, and picked various things I liked to make a very powerful 4 member party; the major difference being I included a fighter 4/rogue X in my original 4 members. Then I added 2 more characters after the ice temple, and fairly well breezed through the game. My hat is off to the authors of both those FAQs, as well as to the people who have added to discussions on this forum over the years (I've been reading a lot of the old posts here).

One common notion I've seen repeated in the guides and the forums (not by everyone, but maybe by everyone but 2 or 3 people) is that from a power gaming standpoint, bringing a rogue along is not as powerful as many other possible choices. So I thought about it for a while, and sure enough I agree. Filling one of your slots with a rogue is sub-optimal. The problem is that rogues are my favorites. I value them for their versatility, among other things.

The main thing rogues have against them is in the way I've observed the AI reacting to sneak attacks. They pretty much always seem to turn away from the tank and attack my poor rogue after the first one, so he has to constantly be changing targets to keep his damage up. But every time he changes targets, a new monster starts attacking him. And with all his stats allocated to int and dex, his damage goes from average to pathetic quite quickly. And his hit points plummet just as fast.

So I decided to take advantage of that roguish versatility, and create a party consisting of 4 rogues, a cleric, and a sorcerer(possibly to become a sorcerer/bard if I decide to take on Heart of Fury mode, and want the luck song or something). My reasoning is that with 4 rogues, I can flank with very little micro, and focus down 1 target at a time very quickly with sneak attack damage. So after that long winded introduction, I'll just post the party I'm using, and ask for any feedback or criticism you can come up with. I should mention that I've installed some of the ease of use mod, particularly the holy avenger and bastard swords components.

Scarecrow:
LG Aasimar Rogue X/Paladin 1 (to be dualed in time to benefit from the HA quest)
STR 18#
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 10
CON 16
Feat: Power Attack
Skills: Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, UMD 4
He will be using staves until he gets his paladin level, when he will switch to great swords.

Dorothy:
N Human Rogue X
STR 18#
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 11
WIS 10
CHA 3
Feats: Power Attack, Simple Weapon Quarterstaff (2nd dot)
Skills: Disable Device 4, Open Lock 4, Pick Pocket 4, Search 4, Move Silently 2

Tin Man:
N Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Rogue X
STR 20#
DEX 18
CON 18
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 1
Feat: Martial Weapon Axe (2nd dot)
Skills: Hide 1, Move Silently 1

Cowardly Lion:
Carbon copy of tin man

Wicked Witch:
LN Human Dreadmaster of Bane X
STR 18
DEX 16
CON 18
INT 3
WIS 18#
CHA 3
Feats: Combat Casting, Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword (1st dot)
Skills: Concentration 4

Glinda:
LG Human Sorcerer
STR 11
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 3
WIS 10
CHA 18#
Feats: Spell Focus: Enchantment (2 dots)
Skills: Concentration 3, Spellcraft 3


Well, that's my party. The only mistake (I just now realized it) is I won't be able to take levels in bard with my sorcerer because of alignments. Maybe I can install the EoU module that ignores alignment. Not a huge deal, but I think the luck would have been nice if it counted toward sneak attack dice. So far I've breezed through the Shaengarn Bridge mission and hardly took any damage. But I forgot to rest before going on to the next mission, and I only have 1 spell left on my sorcerer and 0 on my cleric. The rogues are cleaning up the orcs quite nicely without too much need for micro. I will also have to see how effective it will be to have Scarecrow use bluff in combat; I think it could pay off very well against bosses.

 

That's a very nice first post. I'm a Rogue fan and I find IWD2 gave them something of a rough deal. In NWN Rogues get Sneak Attacks with ranged weapons and that would have made some overpowered sling wielding Rogue builds if it was the case in IWD2.

Maxing out STR and using a two handed weapon is a good idea. I found that sneaking around was useful but that to maximize sneak attack damage a better tactic was to use invisibility (more reliable) and stun/hold/sleep effects (which multiply a Rogue's usefulness tenfold at least). If you manage to disable a group of foes and then have some high level Rogue finish them off then it's a blast (it takes more time than casting Wail of the Banshee but IMO it's way cooler).

I like adding only one Cleric of Bane level to a Rogue for the Command spell. Just having that Rogue cast it on an enemy is a way to make sure that this enemy will be dead soon enough.

Anyway, it seems to me that you know what you're doing. Still, a Rogue heavy party is an awfully nice concept, let us know how it goes.

 

Excellent points on the sneak attack micromanaging problems and how to solve them.

Goes to show that even if a single rogue seems lacking against a bunch of mobs, adding yet another makes both of them stronger than the first. That, my friends, is what party synergy is all about.

I'm interested to hear about your progress. Make sure you take notes on some of the bigger battles in how this "play ping pong with sneak attacks" pans out in gameplay. Seems plausible enough, methinks.

 

Just a quick update. I should mention the Caravan Bridge battle, because I thought it was a bit humerus. I had been squatting at level 3 on my characters for 3 screens, so they were 2x rogue (3), 2x barbarian (1)/rogue(2), dreadmaster (3), and sorcerer (3). As usual, I rushed right for the ogres, and as my melee units came into range Xuki asked to parley, but I denied her. The next thing she did was begin casting. As usual, I ignored her, and got right to the ogre on the bottom of the bridge. Xuki cast a fireball, which I do not recall ever happening before. 3 of my 4 rogues evaded, and she took herself down and the ogres down quit near to death. Score 1 for rogues.

On the other hand, sneak attack isn't working out quite as I'd hoped. Granted, my characters still have at most 2d6 sneak attack dice, but when Cowardly Lion can get a critical hit with his masterwork halberd for nearly 40 damage, 2d6 doesn't seem that special anymore. I'm also not seeing the AI switch targets at all, which I'd hoped would be the case. I'm considering that I should have set Wicked Witch (the cleric) up to be a better tank/decoy, so I could micro her around in circles, forcing the AI to turn its back to my 4 rogues.

Finally, it seems I mistakenly installed the Ease of Use module that puts HoF items into the normal game. I thought I only installed the improved bastard swords (which are good enough to feel quite cheap) and greatsword Holy Avenger. The net effect on my game is that I can't afford to buy as much magical equipment, but the items I see drop are probably meant for a party 10 levels higher than mine. I had a weird feeling when I realized my potential rewards for the weeping widow quest in Targos were 500 gold, 700 gold, or a measly dagger that sold for 18,000 gold.

Anyway, I've loaded up my game, and it's time to take on the Horde fortress. I think I will squat at level 3 until the end of this mission, if I can make it that far.

 

I don't like HoF and getting uber items makes 2D6 sneak attacks totally redundant...

Rogues are a lot like spellcasters, it takes quite a few levels for them to show their true colours and one should try to keep them as pure as possible (one level from another class is the limit if you don't want to cripple your build but you already know that).

Are you going for the sneaky approach or the hack and slash one? Those drums can net you a lot of XP (so does resting to get trolls or half goblins to spawn).

 

Try to uninstall the HOF items if you can. I dont think there should be any problems from doing so. Maybe do it just before you enter a new area? That way, it wont have to remove any items that have already appeared. The problem is that some of the regular items are quite useful, so exercising self restraint could be difficult. ie, you dont want to use the HOF versions, but the regular versions are quite good and its a shame to lose access to those.

if I was you, I would have the paladin stats of:

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

Having 10 dex would mean he just isnt getting the most out of his rogue class, while the loss to str and wis wont really be noticeable. Admittedly rogue's best saving throw is its reflex saving throw, so you could use 12 dex and add 2 points to another attribute. Higher dex would obviously make the character much more likely to evade fireballs etc.

 

The Paladin should get higher saves thanks to his CHA anyway so the difference is really minor, especially if this character is meant to wear the heaviest armours in the game.

Trading 1 point in attack and 1.5 damage for some extra points in reflex saves is probably not such a good idea for this build (the AC bonus only applies for lighter armours anyway). If AC matters that much it'd probably be better to use a shield instead. Given the party, Scarecrow is the only one likely to wear a heavy suit of armour anyway.

IMO there is nothing wrong with making a Rogue with a mediocre DEX if this character is first and foremost a melee character who wears a heavy armour (Evasion works with any armour). I once made a Rogue/Paladin who looked a lot like the build Sneak.King posted and the two handed weapon worked really well with Sneak Attacks (not to mention that this character could use Evasion as well as any DEX based rogue because of his CHA).

 

Carad, Evasion does NOT work with any armor. You can't wear anything heavier than Studded Leather, otherwise the ability will cease to function.

 

Weird, are you sure? Is there a mod that allows it to work with heavy armours? I know it worked in my games.

 

Well there have been some delays, but I thought I'd keep you updated. Firstly, I don't appear to be getting the sneak attack bonus more than once per target; I'm still not 100% sure, but I might be in for a major disappointment. I had hoped it would be once per target per round, but the rogue class description is a bit vague.

Second, I decided to remove a bunch of the ease of use stuff, including HoF items being in the basic game. That didn't remove them from my save, however, so I decided to start over. This was ok, because I wanted to change Glinda's (the sorcerer) alignment away from lawful anyway.

Third, my current save seems to be bugged. I rescued the druid on the first map of chapter 1, and he jumps to his home conversation topics too early. He doesn't move the logs to let me progress, he doesn't ask me to rescue his wife, and he doesn't earthport back to his home. It's a good thing I have the autosave from the beginning of the chapter, so I really don't have much to redo. I'll try to play through to the next chapter, and I'll post an update when I'm there.

As for Scarecrow's stats, I kept him at 10 dex because I planned to get him Owl's Feather, which doesn't afford a dex bonus anyway. He was already so stretched for stats I had to make him Aasimar.

 

About the druid: my guess is that there's an orc hiding somewhere on your side of the river. Kill him and the druid should open up.

-Max