Problem fighting Torgal

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Your savegame might have preserved the "problem" inside the area, so starting a new game might help.

 

The problem is one of the hidden bugs of the infamous BG2 fixpack which appears only under certain conditions in presence of some other mods. Tactics was innocent, you didn't need to uninstall it. There are several ways you can restore your game without this bug; it depends on which of your mods you insist to keep. You said that you have actually uninstalled all of your mods. In that case, install Baldurdash Fixpack v 1.12, Ease-of-Use and Tactics. I'm sure you won't have the mentioned problem with these three installed.

 

I don't think that's right (though I'm happy to be corrected). The BG2 fixpack (I'm not sure what makes it "infamous"!) gives Torgal the same troll immunities as other trolls. Leaving aside the vexed question of whether that's a bugfix (looks like one to me), that should cause him to be as killable or otherwise as other trolls.

And then Tactics replaces Torgal's creature file with an entirely new one - ditto his script - and so entirely erases the fixpack changes.

With the Fixpack but without Tactics, Torgal should be killable as usual for trolls - i.e. do loads of damage, back off a second so the "almost dead" script fires, finish him with fire/acid. With Tactics, you should just be able to kill him normally, and I'm not 100% sure why dertpk couldn't. There may be another mod involved (I tested the above with Fixpack+Tactics but not with other mods); on the other hand, Torgal has 240-odd hit points and regenerates at 12 hit points per round, so it might just be a case of underestimating him.

Sikret, possibly I'm missing something? Do say if so.

 

Provided the following is also true:

I mean, it might not negate all changes, and some other thing from the "G3 Fixpack" might remain, which interferes with Tactics. The Shaman said it worked for him:

So something is interfering.

However, I emphasize it again that that the savegame, since it stores area files and other things, might have preserved the bug, so even if the problem is sorted out, it's possible that reloading a savegame BEFORE D'Arnise Keep is required, I think.

 

I didn't say that it's one of the "plain" bugs of BG2 fixpack; I said it's one of its "hidden" bugs. BG2 fixpack has both types of bugs. To see what I mean by 'hidden bug' see this post.

The hidden bugs will only appear if the fixpack is installed with certain other mods.

@Baronius

Yes, he needs to start a new game after installing Baldurdash. Returning to a saved game before De'Arnise keep is hardly enough.

 

No, I understood what you meant. (I don't think it's ideal terminology, but that's a separate issue.) But in this particular case I can't see the "hidden bug", because Tactics overwrites the file. Could you give some more details?

 

We need to have his complete WeiDu.log file with the right order before uninstalling Tactics to be able to say how exactly the hidden bug had shown up. He had three big mods, plus Tactics, plus fixpack in an unknown order for us at this moment (the initial order can't be seen in the present WeiDu.log file he has sent after uninstalling Tactics).

 

um... now I'm confused. I assumed there was a particular bug you'd identified. If not, how is it you know the bug is with one mod rather than another? As you say, there are lots of mods there. And as I say, FP, Tactics, and FP+Tactics all work fine on testing.

 

The problem is a hidden bug in BG2 fixpack. What I said in my previous post was that in order to say how exactly that bug had shown up, we need more information. The uncertainty was only about the exact mechanism the hidden bug had come to surface and had shown itself (I thought you were asking this question). Otherwise, if he had used Baldurdash with the same set of other mods, he wouldn't have had that bug in his game (unless one of those big mods - not Tactics for sure- also introduces the same hidden bug into the game; something which I really doubt to be true).

 

DavidW, in case you haven't read this summary about the nature of bugs yet, I can recommend it:
http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47022

In the present case, let Mod1 be G3 Fixpack, Mod2 be the Tactics component, Mod3, Mod4, ..., ModN other mods.

Your test doesn't exclude G3 Fixpack from the list of possible bug sources, because, you have tested Mod1 with Mod2, perhaps with Mod3 and Mod5. On the other hand, you haven't tested it with Mod4 and Mod6, Mod7 etc. that the original poster had installed.

 

Okay, so this may be a terminology issue. Is the "hidden bug" you're thinking of the fact that FP gives Torgal the same regeneration powers as other trolls?

(This is kind of why I don't think the "hidden bug" terminology is ideal. Whether something is a "hidden bug" or just an incompatibility between mods seems to be more a matter of what one thinks about the mod in question than anything else... or at least, if there's a more objective distinction I'm not sure what it is).

I'm also not sure why you think that feature of FP is causing the incompatibility - though it sounds plausible. I'd also repeat my concern that there may be no bug at all; 140 hp isn't enough to kill Torgal, and with Tactics uninstalled, it might possibly be the same "you need to back off for a second" issue that comes up with trolls in general. But I admit that I don't know any of these mods especially well.

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I have read it, and I think it's a helpful distinction, but I think its rather narrower than you're using it for. If some mod does something to a file which is uncontroversially bad (e.g. corrupting it) but that bad thing doesn't show up until some other mod is installed, I think the "hidden bug" terminology is quite helpful. (There are lots of "hidden bugs" in vanilla BG1, for instance.)

On the other hand, if mod A does something to a file which isn't uncontroversially bad but which breaks mod B, I'm not sure it's helpful to call it a "hidden bug" rather than a plain incompatibility. Case in point: if mod A makes a class or alignment change that mod B wasn't expecting, that might cause bugs, but I wouldn't call it a "hidden bug" in either mod A or mod B. (Bugs are nonlocal, in the philosopher's sense! - it isn't automatically the case that just because a composite program has a bug, that bug can be localised to one or other of its components).

Obviously one might feel that the particular class or alignment change was a bad idea. One might also feel that some particular mod (e.g. a fixpack) shouldn't be making a certain kind of change (e.g. alignment changes) at all. That's all fair enough. (I gather you have objections to the Fixpack of this form, though I don't happen to agree with them). But that's a different - and more controversial - kind of issue from straightforward bugginess.

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Sorry, only just saw this addition: no, merely as a test it doesn't eliminate G3 fixpack, or any other mod. My point was more theoretical: Tactics completely replaces Torgal's script and CRE file, so modifications made to them by FP or any other mod will be overwritten. That's why I was confused by Sikret's theory, and asked for clarification: I can't see a theoretical method by which FP could be responsible for a bug like this with Tactics installed.

 

The simplified theory is this:

Baldurdash + Tactics + Those other Mods -> no bug

BG2 Fixpack + Tactics + Those other mods -> Bug

Tactics had overwritten the file, but then those other mods had modified TorGal again making it vulnerable to the hidden bug in BG2 fixpack.

With Baldurdash, no bug would be created regardless of whether the player installs Tactics before those other mods or after them.

This is of course the theory you asked for. We can't say what exactly has been the case in this particular player's game, because we don't have access to his initial WeiDu.log file before uninstalling Tactics (as I mentioned before).

 

Since this is only partially on-topic, I'll be short.

(bold font weight added by me)

Regardless of the term used, I think it's reasonable to expect a fixpack not to break other mods. For fan-made mods, it wouldn't be reasonable, but for something which is called BG2 Fixpack and is promoted as the standard part of all unmodded and modded game installations, it is.

 

So my questions stand

(i) is the thing you're calling a hidden bug the fact that FP gives Torgal the same regeneration powers as other trolls?
(ii) I had the impression from the earlier post that you knew the cause was an FP bug (and not some other bug or incompatibility) - is that right or is it just a theory?

 

It's not so much a theory as an assumption (and a legitimate one at that). As we all know, FP is the cause (directly or indirectly) of all bugs in the game (even when it isn't installed!*), and so it's reasonable to assume that it is the cause of this particular bug.

* Edit: Just to clarify, the reason it doesn't have to be installed is due to Newton's Third Law of motion, which states that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". In this case, the action of creating FP as a supposed force of good (when it is actually pure evil) in fact had the opposite effect of creating all SOA/TOB bugs due to its mere existence. It is unclear at this time whether FP is the cause of bugs in other computer games.

 

Brilliant, Splunge. Absolutely brilliant.

I'd give you rep points but SP won't allow it (it says I need to spread more around before I give you any more -- did I ever give you any? -- there must be some mistake ).

 

Sorry Tal. Sometimes I can't help myself. It won't happen again (other than to correct a typo, as I just did).

But before I finish, I just want to say this - thanks, T2! And I think you might have given me rep points in the past, but I can't rember why. I do know you weren't one of the last 5 to do so.

 

Although this is going to be repetitive, I have to repeat again:

Yes, I know that the cause of the problem is the BG2 fixpack. The following is a typical and most frequently seen phenomenon:

Baldurdash + same set of mods -> no bug

BG2 fixpack + same set of mods -> the bug

This is exactly an example of the concept of "hidden bug". BG2 fixpack is actually full of such and similar bugs. It is obviously breaking something which Baldurdash doesn't.

It's the same in this case as well. As for the theory, you asked for a theoretical scenario to explain how it is possible that while Tactics overwriting TorGal, its changes might have been negated and I gave you what you asked (= a theoretical scenario). To say what exactly was going on in this particular player's game we need more information as I explained before.

This doesn't look to be a healthy atmosphere to continue this discussion. So, I won't continue. Those who have not decided not to understand, should have already understood the point.

EDIT: I just forgot to answer to this other question:

I'm not going to give an explicit answer to this question (no matter how many times you ask it). Developers of BG2 fixpack should learn to do some real work, some research, and above all, they need to learn that they should *test* their mod (specially when it is a fixpack which is supposed to fix bugs rather than adding new bugs to the game). Releasing bugged mods is the direct consequence of releasing mods without testing them.

They should also learn to solve their own problems. Maintaining a bugfree mod requires putting a lot of time on it. They cannot release a mod and then sit and wait for others to solve its problems. This, however, doesn't mean that I had never been willing to help them. I have already pointed out some of the hidden bugs in BG2 fixpack in a more explicit way (such as the hidden bug they have created with Tolgerias); but, they didn't seem to be willing to listen.

 

I also don't see this can be a fruitful discussion, because DavidW basically stated that it's "plain incompatibility" when a fixpack *breaks* a mod, implying that it's a natural phenomenon and should be addressed as any other incompatibility between mods. With such an approach, it's hard to understand the real significance and importance of thorough software design and correct implementation & testing.

I still believe that something which is built to fix things shouldn't actually break things. If it happens once per two years, okay, but when it's considered a natural practise to fix mods because the standard fixpack *breaks* them, it isn't acceptable anymore (at least by myself as a mod developer, because I won't support a "fixpack" for my mod if I know that it might break my mod).

But all this is just a theoretical discussion, since DavidW asked for clarification about the theory. If/when dertpk shares more information about his/her setup, more can be said, and hopefully we can help dertpk to get rid of the problem.