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I have to call you on that bluff. There is no way the RAF would be able to determine that until the plane was IN Manchester. It's only a few miles off course (which is probably still in the traffic scheme). A plane flying from Boston comes close to New York -- by the time it was determined there was a problem there was no time to scramble any aircraft (had such a contingency been planned).

The reins are tighter now and we've seen several adjustments in the US since 9/11 -- I've seen A/C scrambled in Chicago moving at Mach 2 to intercept a commercial aircraft. Many cities have continual CAP flights (military jets in the air 24 hours a day). That was not done before -- it's not a conspiracy, just the belief that those educated enough to fly a commercial jet would not be stupid enough to fall for the suicide mission rhetoric -- we were wrong.

 

if you look at a map of the US, youll find that manhattan island is a fair degree south from the flight path from boston to LA, which would take it in a line over detriot and chicago.

and once again with the UK, manchester is about 70 or 80 miles outside the flight path from glasgow to london, it is actually very easy to tell is a flight is off course, we can centralise a planes position down to metres. and the RAF wouldnt immediately respond, air traffic would attempt communicatiion with the aircraft to get an answer if they believed anything was up then they would notify the RAF.

 

If you think that the Intelligence community is capable of what you are implying (a successful cover-up of a scheme from the executive branch to crash airplanes into the Pentagon, WTC) that they did, you are giving them far too much credit. I was part of the intelligence community when 911 happened (grim faces in the office that day....) and can assure you that there is no way in hell that our government and the intelligence community could pull something like this off without getting caught.

We live in a society where the president can't get a blowjob in the privacy of his office without everyone knowing-yet you somehow expect the president to mastermind a multi-tiered terrorist attack on his own nation and not get caught? That's just silly.

 

I sometimes think that the best cure for conspiracy theorists is to have them work for the government

 

There are people who still believe to this day that FDR knew of the attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened, but he allowed it to happen anyway in order to get America involved in WII. It's nonsense, but it's a story that has been in the conservative backwaters for years - and some people believe it.

 

working for the government actually made me more paranoid about conspiracy

 

Popular Mechanics - 9/11: Debunking the Myths

 

If the government did manage to pull off something this elaborate then they deserve to get away with it, because (evil though it might have been), it would be such a genius plan, that I'd have to congratulate them on their absolute efficiency. And then tell them to apply that brilliant planning to other long standing domestic issues (like national debt, illegal immigration, gun crimes etc etc)

 

you know, i see alot of theories relating to the fact that terrorists were not involved in the operation and that it was a US millitary operation.

no covert organisation in the world would be stupid enough to field its own personnel in an operation designed to undermine public security, the 'need to know' basis of the operation would involve so many people including a large civillian portion that operation security would be difficult if not impossible - someone would talk.

picture this: my plan

under the guise of a terrorist cell;
>round up fanatics who hate the western world (easy task - look at the multi nationality of the hijackers they can come from anywhere).
>present them with a plan to kill thousands of infidels.
>tell them that you would take care of the security arrangements.
>make sure everything is in place
>let them do their job.

(wouldnt be the first time the CIA used 'foreign' forces for an attack:
1961: CUBA. Train and support invasion force of Cuban
exiles to overthrow Castro government, and assist their
invasion at the Bay of Pigs. Cost: $62 million.)


and all you would need is a signiture from the prez.

screw all the conspiracy theory stuff about missiles and explosives, the simplest plan is above.

 

You would NEVER get a signature from the president for that sort of plan. If it ever happened, it would much more 'off the record' than that.

Anyway, the main reason why this would not happen is that it's not worth it. The risks are so high and the payoff is too uncertain and nebulous. Plenty of easier ways to meet your objectives.

 

You can't be serious. Either you are not very good at English (and don't understand what you are implying) or you're wearing aluminium foil on your head to keep the CIA from reading your mind. I really don't think you're either of those options, but the statement certainly had that quality to it. You are stating that it is A FACT that 9/11 was a military plot AND that no terrorists were involved. That is blatantly untrue. The are enough CREDIBLE (important distinction here) independant organizations that have thoroughly investigated the 9/11 attacks for any reasonable person to rule out a military attack.

We have had several threads discussing specific issues -- from the effects of extreme heat on metal fatigue to the discussion of whether or not a plane actually struck the pentagon. Please feel free to do a search on them and read the posts.

 

here's a small list of theings the CIA have gotten permission to carry out in the past:

1946: GREECE. Restore monarch after overthrow of Metaxas
government. Successful.

1946-1955: WEST GERMANY. Average of $6 million annually to
support former Nazi intelligence network of General
Reinhard Gehlen. Successful.

1948-1968: ITALY. Average of $30 million annually in
payments to political and labor leaders to supportanti-
Communist candidates in Italian elections. Successful.

1949: GREECE. Military assistance to anti-Communist forces
in Greek civil war. Successful.

1949-1953: UKRAINE. Organize and support a Ukrainian
resistance movement. Unsuccessful.

1949-1961: BURMA. Support 12,000 Nationalist China troops
in Burma under General Li Mi as an incursion force into
People's Republic of China. Unsuccessful.

1950-1952: POLAND. Financial and military assistance for
Polish Freedom and Independence Movement. Unsuccessful.

1950: ALBANIA. Overthrow government of Enver Hoxha.
Unsuccessful.

1951-1954: CHINA. Airdrop guerilla teams into People's
Republic of China. Unsuccessful.

1953: IRAN. Overthrow Mossadegh government and install
Zahedi. Cost: $10 million. Successful.

1953: PHILLIPINES. Assassination and propaganda campaign to
overcome Huk resistance and install government of Ramon
Magsaysay. Successful.

@Copyright 1984 by the Center for Military Research and Analysis

1953: COSTA RICA. Overthrow government of Jose Figueres.
Unsuccessful.

1954: SOUTH VIETNAM. Install government of Ngo Dinh Diem.
Successful.

1954: WEST GERMANY. Arrange abduction and discreditation of
West German intelligence chief Otto John, and replace
with Reinhard Gehlen. Successful.

1954: GUATEMALA. Overthrow government of Jacobo Arbenz
Guzman and replace with Carlos Castillo Armas.
Successful.

1955: CHINA. Assassinate Zhou Enlai en route to Bandung
Conference. Unsuccessful.

1956: HUNGARY. Financial and military assistance to
organize and support a Hungarian resistance movement,
and broad propaganda campaign to encourage it.
Unsuccessful.

1956: CUBA. Establish anti-Communist police force, Buro de
Represion Actividades Communistas (BRAC) under Batista
regime. Successful.

1956: EGYPT. Overthrow Nasser government. Unsuccessful.

1956: SYRIA. Overthrow Ghazzi government. Aborted by
Israeli invasion of Egypt.

1956-1957: JORDAN. Average of $750,000 annually in personal
payments to King Hussein. According to United States
government, payments ceased when disclosed in 1976.

1957: LEBANON. Financial assistance for the election of
pro-American candidates to Lebanese Parliament.
Successful.

1958: INDONESIA. Financial and military assistance,
including B-26 bombers, for revel forces attempting to
overthrow Sukarno government. Unsuccessful.

1958-1961: TIBET. Infiltrate Tibetan guerrillas trained in
United States to fight Chinese Communists. Unsuccessful.

1959: CAMBODIA. Assassinate Prince Norodum Shianouk.
Unsuccessful.

1960: GUATEMALA. Military assistance, including the use of
B-26 bombers for government of Miguel Ydigoras Fuentes
to defeat rebel forces. Successful.

1960: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to rebel
forces of Holden Roberto. Inconclusive.

1960: LAOS. Military assistance, including 400 United
States Special Forces troops, to deny the Plain of Jars
bad Mekong Basin to Pathet Lao. Inconclusive.

1961-1965: LAOS. Average of $300 million annually to
recruit and maintain L'Armee Clandestine of 35,000 Hmong
and Meo tribesmen and 17,000 Thai mercenaries in support
of government of Phoumi Nosavan to resist Pathet Lao.
Successful.

1961-1963: CUBA. Assassinate Fidel Castro. Six attempts in
this period. Unsuccessful.

1961: CUBA. Train and support invasion force of Cuban
exiles to overthrow Castro government, and assist their
invasion at the Bay of Pigs. Cost: $62 million.
Unsuccessful.

1961: ECUADOR. Overthrow government of Hose Velasco Ibarra.
Successful.

1961: CONGO. Precipitate conditions leading to
assassination of Patrice Lumumba. Successful.

1961: DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Precipitate conditions leading to
assassination of Rafael Trujillo. Successful.

1961-1966: CUBA. Broad sabotage program, including
terrorist attacks on coastal targets and bacteriological
warfare, in effort to weaken Castro government.
Unsuccessful.

1962: THAILAND. Brigade of 5,000 United States Marines to
resist threat to Thai government from Pathet Lao.
Successful.

1962-1964: BRITISH GUIANA. Organize labor strikes and riots
to overthrow government of Cheddi Jagan. Successful.

1962-1964: BRAZIL. Organize campaign of labor strike and
propaganda to overthrow government of Joao Goulart.
Successful.

1963: DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Overthrow government of Juan
Bosch in military coup. Successful.

1963: SOUTH VIETNAM. Precipitate conditions leading to
assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem. Successful.

1963: ECUADOR. Overthrow government of Carlos Julio
Arosemena. Successful.

1963-1984: EL SALVADOR. Organize ORDEN and ANSESAL domestic
intelligence networks under direction of General Jose
Alberto Medrano and Colonel Nicolas Carranza, and
provide intelligence support and training in
surveillance, interrogation and assassination
techniques. Successful.

1963-1973: IRAQ. Financial and military assistance for
Freedom Party of Mulla Mustafa al Barzani in effort to
establish independent Kurdistan. Unsuccessful.

1964: CHILE. $20 million in assistance for Eduardo Frei to
defeat Salvador Allende in Chilean elections.Successful.

1964: BRAZIL, GUATEMALA, URUGUAY, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC.
Provide training in assassination and interrogation
techniques for police and intelligence personnel.
Inconclusive.

1964: CONGO. Financial and military assistance, including
B-26 and T-28 aircraft, and American and exiled Cuban
pilots, for Joseph Mobutu and Cyril Adoula, and later
for Moise Tshombe in Katanga, to defeat rebel forces
loyal to Lumumba. Successful.

1964-1967: SOUTH VIETNAM. Phoenix Program to eliminate Viet
Cong political infrastructure through more than 20,000
assassinations. Infiltrated by Viet Cong and only
partially successful.

1964-1971: NORTH VIETNAM. Sabotage and ambush missions
under Operations Plan 34A by United States Special
Forces and Nung tribesmen. Inconclusive.

1965-1971: LAOS. Under Operations Shining Brass and Prairie
Fire, sabotage and ambush missions by United States
Special Forces personnel and Nung and Meo tribesmen
under General Bang Pao. Inconclusive.

1965: THAILAND. Recruit 17,000 mercenaries to support
Laotian government of Phoumi Nosavan resisting Pathet
Lao. Successful. 1965: PERU. Provide training in
assassination and
interrogation techniques for Peruvian police and
intelligence personnel, similar to training given in
Uruguay, Brazil and Dominican Republic, in effort to
defeat resistance movement. Unsuccessful.

1965: INDONESIA. Organize campaign of propaganda to
overthrow Sukarno government, and precipitate conditions
leading to massacre of more than 500,000 members of
Indonesian Communist Party, in order to eliminate
opposition to new Suharto government. Successful.

1967: BOLIVIA. Assist government in capture of Ernesto Che
Guevara. Successful.

1967: GREECE. Overthrow government of George Papandreou and
install military government of Colonel George
Papadopolous after abdication of King Constantine.
Successful.

1967-1971: CAMBODIA. Under Projects Daniel Boone and Salem
House, sabotage and ambush missions by United States
Special Forces personnel and Meo tribesmen.
Inconclusive.

1969-1970: CAMBODIA. Bombing campaign to crush Viet Cong
sanctuaries in Cambodia. Unsuccessful.

1970: CAMBODIA. Overthrow government of Prince Norodom
Sihanouk. Successful.

1970-1973: CHILE. Campaign of assassinations, propaganda,
labor strikes and demonstrations to overthrow government
of Salvador Allende. Cost: $8,400,000. Successful.

1973-1978: AFGHANISTAN. Military and financial assistance
to government of Mohammed Duad to resist rise to power
of Noor Mohammed Taraki. Unsuccessful.

1975: PORTUGAL. Overthrow government of General Vasco dos
Santos Goncalves. Successful.

1975: ANGOLA. Military assistance to forces of Holden
Roberto and Jonas Savimbi to defeat forces of Popular
Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) during
Angolan civil war, and prevent MPLA from forming new
government. Unsuccessful.

1975: AUSTRALIA. Propaganda and political pressure to force
dissolution of labor government of Gough Whitlam.
Successful. 1976: JAMAICA. Military coup to overthrow
government of
Michael Manley. Unsuccessful.

1976-1984: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to
forces of Jonas Savimbi to harass and destabilize Neto
and succeeding governments. Inconclusive.

1979: IRAN. Install military government to replace Shah and
resist growth of Moslem fundamentalism. Unsuccessful.

1979-1980: JAMAICA. Financial pressure to destabilize
government of Michael Manley, and campaign propaganda
and demonstrations to defeat it in elections.
Successful.

1979: AFGHANISTAN. Military aid to rebel forces of Zia
Nezri, Zia Khan Nassry, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Sayed Ahmed
Gailani and conservative mullahs to overthrow government
of Hafizullah Amin. Aborted by Soviet intervention and
installation of new government.

1980-1984: AFGHANISTAN. Continuing military aid to same
rebel groups to harass Soviet occupation forces and
challenge legitimacy of government of Babrak Karmal.

1979: SEYCHELLES. Destabilize government of France Albert
Rene. Successful.

1980: GRENADA. Mercenary coup to overthrow government of
Maurice Bishop. Successful.

1980: DOMINICA. Financial support to Freedom Party of
Eugenia Charles to defeat Oliver Seraphim in Dominican
elections. Successful.

1980: GUYANA. Assassinate opposition leader Walter Rodney
to consolidate power of government of Forbes Burnham.
Successful.

1980-1984: NICARAGUA. Military assistance to Adolfo Colero
Portocarrero, Alfonso Robelo, Alfonso Callejas, Fernando
Chamorro Rappacioli, Eden Pastora Gomez, Adrianna
Guillen, Steadman Fagoth and former Somoza National
Guard officers, to recruit, train and equip anti-
Sandinista forces for sabotage and terrorist incursions
into Nicaragua from sanctuaries in Honduras and Costa
Rica, in effort to destabilize government of Daniel
Ortega Saavedra.

1981: SEYCHELLES. Military coup to overthrow government of
France Albert Rene. Unsuccessful. 1981-1982: MAURITIUS.
Financial support to Seewoosagar
Ramgoolam to bring him to power in 1982 elections.
Unsuccessful.

1981-1984: LIBYA. Broad campaign of economic pressure,
propaganda, military maneuvers in Egypt, Sudan and Gulf
of Sidra, and organization if Libyan Liberation Front
exiles to destabilize government of Muammar Qaddafi.
Inconclusive.

1982: CHAD. Military assistance to Hissen Habre to
overthrow government of Goukouni Oueddei. Successful.

1982: GUATEMALA. Military coup to overthrow government of
Angel Anibal Guevara. Successful.

1982: BOLIVIA. Military coup to overthrow government of
Celso Torrelio. Successful.

1982: JORDAN. Military assistance to equip and train two
Jordanian brigades as an Arab strike force to implement
United States policy objectives without Israeli
assistance.

1982-1983: SURINAM. Overthrow government of Colonel Desi
Bouterse. Three attempts in this period. Unsuccessful.

1984: EL SALVADOR. $1.4 million in financial support for
the Presidential election campaign of Jose Napoleon
Duarte. Successful.

and as for not worth it: why?

since then, hasnt the president held up 9/11 for every millitary activity he's carried out, and for every country he's put pressure on? didnt he get a second term, spouting his war on terror for his bandwagon?

seems like he got his murders worth

 

And why does that list (which is over 20 years old) have anything to do with President Bush? Or 9/11?

You have a very warped view of the power of the US President. The United States Government is not a nameless, faceless entity -- it's men and women just like those that frequent this board. It would take a boatload of really sick people to plan and carry out an attack on their own neighbors -- people like that exist, but not all together in one place. The ideas you're presenting just aren't possible to carry out; someone would leak the information.

 

Let's also not forget that since those items are on a list.....that means we know about them. The question isn't whether or not the president would be able to do it. The question is whether the president would be able to do it to his own people and not get caught.

What did you do when you worked for the government, Shoshino? I was actually in the intelligence community.

[ June 14, 2006, 23:31: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

i was an operator specialised in security intelligence, i did 6 years and left because i want to be a copper

thats the beauty of the above plan, the president didnt do anything

al queda did it

 

Although, I do not believe that the U.S government orchestrated the events of September 11th , it certainly isn't above staging “attacks” in order to further its political goals. A leaked memo recently revealed that Mr Bush told Mr Blair that the US was so worried about the failure to find hard evidence against Saddam that it thought of "flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft planes with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours", adding "If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach [of UN resolutions]".

 

Translation for everyone else: Shoshino was an MP. A security guard. It seems likely that he was actually what the Airforce calls an SP. (Same job, neater name.)

[ June 15, 2006, 14:40: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Its amazing how low Bush can go.

 

A copper? A chunk of metal? Or are you using the slang (and rather archaic) word for a police officer?

 

Oh yes. That video again.

1.The strength of steel decreases dramatically with temperature. At 1000, it has less than half the strength it has at normal temperatures.

That said I do have a few unanswered questions myself regarding it.


Firstly

From the fbi press release
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm

But some of the accused hijackers are still alive:

Source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
(Sept 23)
And others still alive.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,784541,00.html

And of course Osama's split personality
Sept 28 2001 (Ummat, Palestinian newspaper

Contrasted to 31 Dec 2001 (confession tape + mistranslations)
http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/16801


Osama's most wanted page.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

And an interesting comment