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Bush spies on Americans

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Shrikant, Dec 17, 2005.

  1. Shrikant

    Shrikant Swords! Not words! Veteran

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    [​IMG] It is said that the people deserve their rulers.

    But surely no one deserves this or this.

    I can't get the original link from nyt since it requires registration.
     
  2. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    I've never held with people complaining about being watched by the government (I assume that this is what this is about). Well, duh! Of course the government is watching people and they have every right to IMO. Better that than terrorists and all sorts roaming free and unwatched.
     
  3. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
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    This is doubleplus ungood.
     
  4. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Listening to phonecalls is better than putting cameras in people's houses but imagine what kinds of politically helpful information a government can learn by eavesdropping on certain categories of potential suspects in the ranks of the opposition (such as Marting Luther King, for instance).
     
  5. Dendri Gems: 20/31
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    Most unfortunate. But then the Americans in turn are spying on us here in Europe in a similar fashion, so: :p
     
  6. Klorox

    Klorox Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu! Veteran

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    I actually appreciate it, knowing that I've done nothing wrong.

    If the gov't catches one person, this was well worth it. I feel safer now.
     
  7. khaavern Gems: 14/31
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    In US, people tend to think otherwise. That is, the government has no business spying on people at will. If they have a good reason, they can get a court order.

    And actually, I think this viewpoint is held by a large amount of conservatives; that is part of Bush's base. So I expect there will be quite a large outcry about this (and justified, in my opinion).

    Is refreshing to see such trust in the government :)
     
  8. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    "Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither." - Benjamin Franklin
     
  9. Incarnate Gems: 5/31
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    Blind thrust in a government is really foolish and harmful .
     
  10. Dorion Blackstar Gems: 7/31
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    To me this is more proof that the terrorists are winning.People are so willing to give up there rights for some false sense of safety it truly baffles me.I am stunned at the amount of people I hear on the talk radio programs that have no promblem with this.They just seem to miss the point that we are losing the rights we are supposed to be fighting for.
     
  11. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Every human being has the right to privacy. Unless there is some justifiable reason for spying it should not be done. This is why a court order should be obtained. Sorry to all those of you who feel safer but I've been through witch hunts. No thanks! I'll take my chances.
     
  12. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Few people value something they take for granted until it's taken away completely. After that the horrible realization kicks in, but by then it's too late. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes another Republican reign after Bush before most of America wakes up and realizes the consequences of swapping freedom for security. Or if it'll even happen at all - the majority seems quite content with the way Bush is running things, so at best the Republicans will tone it down a bit and the majority will be kept satisfied. Why change a winning concept?
     
  13. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
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    Ok, I agree with you, but what makes you think the Democrats value individual freedom more so than the Republicans - if that is what you areimplying? If anything, I would say the Republicans respect more people's autonomy and self ruling.
    As to the whole "spying", I am strongly against cameras, rigged phonecalls - whatever you call it - privacy invasion etc. Except for betrayers and known criminals.
     
  14. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Well, based on their record and MO, I don't think they'd go to such extremes as Bush & co. have. Certainly, some of the things Bush has made mandatory like extensive airport checks are common sense precautions any sensible president would put into action, but much of what the Republicans have been doing has gone way over the line. But then again, the question is really whether Americans think the same, or just their media and the rest of the world. Because the US media has been pretty vocal in criticizing the Bush administration's dirty little secrets as they became public, but the overall support for Bush or his anti-terrorist measures hasn't really fallen that much. Because, let's face it, most people in the US don't fall under the terrorist suspect category, and if the relatively few that do have their rights trampled on and/or are tortured despite actually being innocent, well... that's their problem. As long as it doesn't start happening to your average Joes, Bush can pretty much do whatever he wants under the guise of protecting the majority. The fact that this is really very un-American only confirms that theory is one thing and practice something else entirely. And I'm not really sure that I wouldn't agree with this viewpoint if I were American... I'd just feel bad about all the hypocrisy surrounding it.
     
  15. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I think we need to give authorities more freedom to prevent violent crime -- not just terrorism. I would feel much better with fewer violent criminals around.

    This news was neither surprising nor offensive to me.
     
  16. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I agree with Barmy. If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide. Some of you people are far too paranoid.
     
  17. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
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    So, if you have done nothing wrong, you should be fine with people prying into your personal life? There are aspects of myself that I would wish to keep known only to myself, and that does not mean they are criminal, un-moral or "wrong"; only that they say respect to no one else.
     
  18. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Who cares if the government knows that I spent $100 on frilly pink rubber underwear? I can't see how my life would be impacted one bit by them knowing stuff about me. And if it helps catch more criminals and terrorists then that's great, in my opinion.

    I'd rather fight for a better economy than fight for the 'right' to some sort of privacy that doesn't amount to much anyway.
     
  19. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
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    Well, I care. If you don't mind your own personal privacy, just disclaim it to the public, but some people, like me, will keep refusing leting a bunch of nobodies prying into our lives.
     
  20. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    I'm amazed that GWB came out and openly admitted to doing this (indeed, he seemed proud of it). My problem is not with the NSA intercepting information; it's with the breakdown of proper process and the subsequent stomping on individual rights that goes with it.

    If you're going to spy on people, you'd better have a damn good reason for it. This is why the agency seeking to make interceptions has to go through a court and get a warrant to do it. Agencies with exceptionally intrusive powers usually have exceptionally specific recording, reporting and authorisation requirements. Last time I checked, Bush hadn't been given the authority to override the law or turf the separation of powers on a whim.

    Personally, I wouldn't care too much about people looking at my financial or transactional information. If I was being monitored, it would probably be for a decent reason (none I can think of, until the sedition powers in the new anti-terrorism laws come into force, that is). The problem is that someone who's willing to do this is probably willing to use that information. There is always something to leverage against someone.
     
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