'Shoot first law' in Florida

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I think some Finn mentioned in another thread allready that it's easy to get a gun in Finland and that's true. I'm not sure however how the correct procedures exactly go and I'm not sure how difficult it's compared to the US. Never the less a bigger percentage of Finns owns a gun than Americans (I remember reading this from quite a few places but it's some time ago so I can't name a source, they'd be in Finnish anyway). Crimes involving shooting are still quite rare though.

 

And most crimes involving shootings in Finland are not deliberate in the sense of mugger/robber/et ceera having a gun; it's usually someone getting drunk, getting pissed off, and going after his best bud with a shotgun. (can't really offer statistics forr that, though)

 

You say that like shotgunning a dear friend while pissed is a bad thing.

 

In Ireland guns are common, as most of us are farmers and/or live in the countryside. Hand guns and automatic weapons are not permitted. I would even go as far as to say that a higher percentage of Irish would be armed than Americans.

Guns are not needed in urban areas for the general public (wild boars do not generally roam the cities). Thats why Ireland does not have high gun crime, such as drive-by-shootings and armed robbery is very rare.

I think we are not running around shooting each other as we still have high regard for family values, though not as much as, say 10 years ago.

 

And you seem completely clueless about the use of force.

What difference does it make if a criminal has a better weapon? If he has a .357 magnum, does it mean that he can magically disappear when the homeowner shoots a 9 mm at him?

No. Even a stupid criminal -- and they do not tend to be rocket scientists -- knows to avoid a shootout.

If you look at crime statistics in the U.S. at least, you will see that criminals are less likely to try to steal in areas in which legal gun ownership is high.

There is no meaningful distinction between "hunting rifle" and "Weapons that have no other function but to kill other people" unless you're talking about handguns or full auto guns.

 

I tend to respond to insults with insults -- e.g., condescending "you really have a utopian view of the criminal society" -- and I believe I cited as many statistics as you have. Use Google if you really want them -- I do not have time to educate you.

That rather looks like you are talking about something in addition to handguns and machine guns, doesn't it?

 

This is a prime example of why statistics can be so misleading...

The reason is that legal gun ownership is much higher in rural America (i.e. the "Red States"). There are a lot less burglaries in rural America. Burglaries are much more common where people congegrate; congregation of people leads to less animals like deer and skunks, so there are less guns.

 

Actually, you can look at simple handgun ownership and reach the same conclusion, Late Night Thinker.

Taluntain, [snip]

[If you have anything further to say to me as a moderator, please consult the regular forum rules you've agreed to follow upon registration on how to do it. -Tal]

[ October 05, 2005, 15:17: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

I'm in England,
It's extremely difficult to get hold of any form of gun, about the only ones allowed are shotguns (max 12 bore I believe), you need to prove you need it which mostly limits the availability to farmers
(self defense is not good enough) and you need to show you have a secure enough store where it will be kept at all times if not in your possession. I guess there will be a limited number of hunting rifles, but again you'll need a license which will require proof of where you will use it. Auto/Semi auto and handguns are banned & I wouldn't know how to get hold of one.

Crime statistics for the whole of the UK detail just over 3% domestic burglary for 2003/2004, though this includes break-ins where nothing was stolen (about half of this 3%). About 11% of the total included violence/threatening behaviour.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk

 

I also notice that there is a higher proportion of rape and burglary in Slovenia than in the U.S.

I think that is relevant to the discussion. (From site nationmaster.com.)

 

What is the % chance of being burgled in the US? I couldn't find figures.

Is there a breakdown of how many of these turn violent (either to burglar or owner)

Edit, tried the Nationmaster site, interesting.

Well it gives different figures to the UK's own statistics so I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it claims a 1.38% chance of being burgled in the UK, compared to 0.71% in the US. Murdered by Firearm is 0.000% in the UK, and 0.002% in the US.
Murdered full stop is 0.004% (US) 0.001% (UK). Rapes is 0.03% (US) vs 0.014% (UK).

OK, it's difficult to really compare two countries, but I would think the UK is as close a match to the US demographic you will get and still have the gun law differences to be able to make a comparison. Certainly more comparable than Slovenia (no offense intended Tal)

[ October 05, 2005, 17:32: Message edited by: Carcaroth ]

 

Figures must have changed, it now shows 86 rapes for Slovenia in 2000, compared to 89,100 for the US for 1999, %'s as Tal shows.

so:

Guns may have an impact on the chance of being burgled (This doesn't tally with countries such as Spain who have a much smaller likihood) but you are more likely to be murdered or raped?

Statistics are great, but woefully meaningless.

 

This just in from the BBC ; Gun crime (where guns are forbidden) is up 6%

My favorite part was when the blamed the increase on violent crime on better reporting and record keeping.

 

Sorry to skip back to almost the beginning of this topic but I'd like to know if anybody has some recent(2003-2004) information on fully automatic weapons. I know that when I got my Mac-10(full auto .45 submachine gun) I had to fill out about 30 forms and send the US government $200 and promise not to take it across state lines without asking first. I just wanted to know if this is still the deal or not.

In case anybody was wondering I'm not a gun toting idiot. I'm actually a collector of firearms.

 

You have to get a class III license and pass a background check -- and yes, pay a bunch of money -- but IIRC that is still how the process works. Actually, if you did that recently your license might enable you to purchase another class III device w/o going through the whole process against. I'm not sure.

Of course, those outside the Anglosphere's tradition of individual rights will recoil in horror that anyone outside of the military could possibly be trusted with such a weapon, but I think I can live with that.