Saddam Hussein 'arrested in Iraq'

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Yes, so he did. Yes, he had it comming. He, in a way, asked for it. However, he can't be held guilty of the war. Rejecting an ultimatum isn't the same as declaring war or invading.

I used Poland specifically as an example of a Good Boy against Saddam who was a Bad Boy, to show that Poland could also have evaded a war if they submitted to Hitler's claims. We can't say Poland wasn't guilty because they were Good and Saddam was because he was Bad.

But something tells me you could agree with this

Must get Medieval then, hehe. I conquered whole world with Poland in Europa Universalis 2 (that is without: Knights of St. John, Sardinia, Duchy of Athens ). Bordering with Venice in 10 years from start or getting to Malaysia by land before 1750, annexing Spanish and English empires diplomatically (France fell somewhere at the beginning) among other exploits. Speaking of mongers But then, I've won that game playing Vatican

 

Grey Magistrate

I would of taken it as a personal attack, but all you wrote in response to my comments were your thoughts. You didn't refute my concerns; so, no harm done!

 

Whew! Better to be ingratiating than inane, irrelevant than irritating, and refined than refuting.

 

I just have to comment that this is rather nice metaphor. I'll have to use it sometime!

Damn, another excellent quote! What is going on in this thread! Everyone is getting poetic!


@ Grey Magistrate

Argh! You beat me responding to the list! But, you did a better job than what I would have done ... so I can't whine! But, I do have to disagree with you on voodoo economies.

 

Well, I have just heard on TV from a CBS evening news source that we will see Saddam's trial on TV... and I quote.... "This will be incredible television....a real treat for all Americans."

It makes me feel sick and ashamed to be an American. If they go through with this, it will be such a hideous inappropriate debacle--a media feeding frenzy the likes we have never seen. They take things just way too far....and I'm sick and tired of it. Next thing we'll hear they'll be selling tickets. What on god's earth has happened in this country.....

 

Don't give up on this Country yet, Spellie. We are still the greatest experiment in Democracy that the world has ever seen, and we will survive this, even if it becomes a media debacle.

It certainly can't be bigger than the O.J. Simpson trial, and we have survived that. I think by the time this is done it will fall somewhere between the trial of Manuel Noriega and Madam Helmsley.

 

I've already given up. It's god damn shameful. And our media is the laughing stock the world over. You should have seen the looks on these people's faces when they heard that it would be televised....you could almost see the foam dripping from their mouths.

The whole thing disgusts me.

 

The trials of the Nazis were televised. Why not now?

 

I'm going to pretend I'm my dad here and say "If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do the same?"

Surely you have better things to do?

 

I had no desire to see the Nazi trials either. It's not just the cameras in the courtroom, it's all the media hype and frenzy that goes along with it. Like showing Live at 5 war coverage, riding along with the troops...ooo what fun! Let's see if we can see heads blown off! Reality TV at its finest!

It all smacks of sensationalism. Some things are meant to be private for god's sake. Do you want to bet, they'll even encourage TV viewers to log on to some network and give their verdict? It's ******* absurdity at its finest.

 

I'M glad that Hussein has been captured but I think Ben Laden is more dangerous.
Live war on TV has a plus. We can't ignore it.
I don;t like the way Bush ignored the UN. It may not be perfect but it's all we have in the form of International "government.
We need to fight terrorism but together.

Bush scares me.

We may be the only superpower left but if the rest of the world turns against us we won't be for long. Right now all we have is this world (and fantasy).

 

That's not really so. I know that a few have already responded to this, but I think the problem for you is that many of your fellow Democrats voted for, and still support this war. It is a real problem for them since they are trying to have it both ways. Even Hillary voted for it, gave Shrub a blank check on it, and now she has problems because she goes to Iraq and starts trying to manipulate the issue, to have it all her way. As much as I like Hillary, (and admire her for a number of things) I think she is playing too much politics with this issue, and her intentions are very transparent. She may be a babe for an older woman, but someone needs to tell the Empress that she has no cloths on. What I'm leading up to with all this, of course, is Howard Dean.

There's no doubt that there is a kind of struggle between Hillary and her followers and the Dean faction. It may not be as intense as some believe, but nevertheless, he is really challenging her leadership in the Democratic party. I think in her mind and the rest of the leadership of the DLC, Dean is an outsider. Take a gander at this link:

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252252

This really jumps out at me from the Dems leadership's remarks:

What the hell are these people talking about? They are supposed to be the opposition party. Man, they sound like a bunch of Republicans. This is exactly the reason why I gave up on the Democrats about 5 years ago. I get the feeling that they had already written off 2004 to Bush, and then, in 08, along comes Hillary as the big time contender. But Dean has changed the equation. Now, if he wins, Hillary will more than likely have to wait more than 8 years for her chance. Dean can beat Bush on the issues, IMO, and Saddam or no Saddam he can really force all the issues that IX brought up in his post. Plus, that of the Nader charge, which is that Bush is nothing more than a corporation with a suit on.

He is weak on the environment, corporate corruption and collusion, and regardless of the recent "turn-around" in the economy, it is still way below what it was when he first took office. What does Bush have to show for three years? a broken-down old dictator that he dug out of a hole somewhere and is parading around before the rest of the world in a dog-and-pony show. It's not much when you came right down to it. I could go on with this, but I don't want to be "longwinded" about it.

[ December 16, 2003, 16:20: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

How can people be so transparent? I just saw on MSNBC.com a poll that was taken over the weekend. The poll had been planned for weeks in advance - in fact it was the typical polls that run every few weeks for the president's approval rating. Normally, they combine the results from both Saturday and Sunday. However, since the Saddam capture was announced Sunday morning (U.S. time) they actually separated the results from Saturday and Sunday.

Bush's approval rating Saturday: 41%
Bush's approval rating Sunday: 56%.

You capture Saddam, and you get a 15% boost in ratings. Un-freaking-believable. Note that this wasn't his overall approval rating. It was on his foreign policy, regarding whether or not "America was heading in the right direction". The only thing I find more shocking than the 15% jump, was that there were 41% who actually thought "America was heading in the right direction" even before Saddam was caught.

 

@Idiot - Here is the link: Idiots numbers. As you, sort of, pointed out, it wasn't his approval rating, which rose from 52% to 56%.

@Chandos

Your definition of "babe" and mine vary greatly.

 

We are still a long way from the election and a lot can happen between now and a year from now. I wouldn't make too much of those numbers except that Shrub needs all the help he can get right now.

Some things are relative, JF. For Republicans, they put Barbara Bush's picture on the dollar bill.

 

Talking about televising the trial...
Some would say it's the natural extention of the new 'reality tv' influx we seem to have going on over here...
(Oh come on, you knew someone had to say it)
I mean really, think about it. First we have, as Spell said, some network doodad that decides to encourage viewers to call in with their verdict. Then someone smartly coins the phrase "This is REAL reality tv!" Next thing you know, we've got "Survivor:The Saddam Trials" and every american with any sense of decency left weeps bitterly.
To paraphrase (and bastardize, a bit) Jon Stewart, Court TV has just locked itself in a bathroom with a Times magazine.

 

The fact that Hussein is caught is a good thing. But as Ragusa said the end does not justifies the means unless of course you are a Jesuite. And another thing, until it proves beyond any doubt that this is Shadamm and not one of his doubles there is no need to boast.
And one more question, now that Hussein is finally caught when we will see the occupation end?
Furthermore Hussein should not be accounted among the terrorists, he is responsible for many attrocities but that is a different thing. And at least for me, there are other "people" out there in administration seats around the world who are far more worse than Shaddam but they are left free to do as they please. Why?
We all know why but who dares to admit it, is the question.
@Grey

Are you sure about this because i have read different stories. And there is the fact that he is still been held responsible for many terrorist attacks.

That too is a little shaky especially if you think that the attacks of the Talibans have increased and recently a bomb attack was made in Kabul. Not to mention that Afganistan now resembles Medieval Europe, with feuds and where is the word "Baron" put the word "Warlord". Or should we mention that the international funds that were given to Afganistan to rebuilt are not being quite effectivelly used (maybe misplaced?) and only Kabul and Kandahar has managed a small portion of rebuilting. Not to mention the fact that heroine production has skyrocketed again, or the sad fact that not even UN promotes repatriation
despite the fact that it has already been almost 2 years since the "Liberation" of Afganistan.

Excuse me but IIRC, Shaddam did fully submit to the UN inspections and resolutions, even (in the case of inspections) the last minute. But the plans were already set, weren't they? And i don't think that some of Mr Bushs demands especially after Shaddam accepted the inspectors back in were part of the UN resolutions (to leave the country and surrender).

IIRC there were ethnic/reiligious discriminating attacks, there is hunger and a huge problem with the water infrastructure, naturally no WMD (since he did not have any) and naturally no attack against Israel since his army was pathetic at least after of ten years of sanctions and global isolation.
HOLD IRAQ? I was not aware that US was there to stay. It seems that US intensions about the future of Iraq are cloudy still.

Well the means are the real problem not the end. And there US is lacking a lot.

War with Hitler was completely justified from our point of view. If you were a member of the Nazis you would think differently.
And UK and France were in fact the ones who with their actions and treaties after the 1st WW provided the fertile grounds for the seed of Nationalsozialism to grow and make the grab of Germanys administration. So they were not innocent for that matter.
Grey you know i like you a lot so don't take this personally i just found in your post many things changelling me to respond. and since i had quite some time to visit here i could not help myself

 

He may have not submitted 110% percent and he may have indulged in some kind of evasion but he did submit a lot more than what you are trying to make it appear BTA. Disinformation seems to be the norm in this debate. It is as they say, truth is the first victim of war.

 

Just two unrelated bits:

Chandos - my conservative college roommate was so entranced by Hillary Clinton's "babeness" that he used to fantasize about her in a Supreme Court robe. I think he'd vote for her just for the chance that her face might someday go on a dollar bill.

Mithrantir - thanks, I like you a lot, too! Isn't it great the way we reality-worshipping warmongers and mysticism-loving peaceniks can get along so well?