Religious discussion continued

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There is a strong sentiment against using the Bible as proof. And we make up excuses against man and nature. Where else do you think I can pull out proof?

How many times must God proove himself? He did so many times in the Bible. Then He sent Jesus. Now there's no more Red Seas parting, or altars burning just like that even though they were drenched with water, no more calming the storms. At least not as evident as it was. God has proven Himself time and time again and a book has been written about it to let all men know the truth. And you just toss aside that book like it's a fairy tale. And then you get mad because you say "if there is a God, what right has He to toss me aside?" Hello, if you do not accept Him, even despite the gifts He has given us, His own Son on the cross, then why should He? That would be against your will. The will He has given you. He gives you a choice, don't blame Him because you choose not to accept Him.

How is that wrong? Instead of forcing Himself upon us, He gives us the right to choose. And then we have the gall to turn back around and blame it all on Him?

I'm sorry if I am not appearing to treat people respectfully, because that is not my intent. I just felt like I needed to speak up because Christianity was getting torn to shreds and even Nutrimat called for some opposition. And how can I "lighten up" knowing that I will never get to see some of the posters in this thread someday because they have turned their backs on God. How I wish everyone would realize the truth!

I don't do this for my health. I don't do this for brownie points. I do this because I care.

Now on the free will vs. God's omnipotence, I found this that I had posted before. And I still hold by this:

Some would say God has a detailed plan for our lives. I believe God has a sovereign will (the big picture) and a moral will (general guidelines for life). I do not believe God necessarily has an individual will for us. He gave us minds of our own. He knows what path we will take, but that is not the same as saying “He makes us take that path.” He makes us do nothing. He just knows the outcome. I like this analogy; often God compares Himself as a Shepherd and us as His Sheep. Does a shepherd care for his sheep? Yes. Does a shepherd tell each sheep exactly what blade of grass it must eat? No. Yet, for every sheep’s safety, the shepherd has a fence (moral will). If a sheep gets loose, the shepherd will not rest until it is found and cared for.

Now something new:
OK let's put that into context. God is the shepherd, Adam and Eve His sheep. He gave them dominion over the earth. He lets them go about their business, and doesn't tell them when they have to sleep, graze, or have fun. But for their own safety He made a fence. That fence was: do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Well the sheep did anyhow, and they got lost. God takes action, He sends Jesus Christ to right the wrongs.

He then allows more sheep to be born and live their lives. They are free to choose. He puts a fence for their safety, but some still get out. Note that they choose to get out. The end up getting hurt, but He comes after them anyways. They can then choose to come back to the comfort of the pen, or stay out in the harsh reality. He doesn't force Himself upon them, they get to choose.

Eventually though it has to end. At some point God says enough. Time to reveal a new world without sin, for all My followers. All those who do not follow Me, haven chosen otherwise. They do not come with Me, after all they don't follow Me. It was their choice, now they must accept their fate.

This may sound like I am putting words in God's mouth, but no this all comes from the Bible. And again I ask -- How can we debate Christianity and ignore the Bible? You don't debate geometry and ignore the basic rules. This is no different.

And if you are so sure that there is no God, why post and argue you about it so much? Look deep inside. Admit it. Not entirely sure are you. And that's good, continue to seek answers honestly, and they will come to you. Do it, while you still have time. You won't regret it.

 

Big B, a rude person is one who talks while you wish him to listen. No more religious blabber, using what they are trying to disprove as proof! I have a brainwashed cousin just like you! She was my best friend but now, as a personality like yours has invaded caused solely from religion, she is exactly what I think Satan would want her to be. Gaaarn!

"Early one morning, Beezlebub arose,
Yawned, stretched, and put on his Sunday clothes."

EXACTLY as Judas said (by the way, Judas, I love you and all your family...will you all marry me and have lots of children, too? We can be return of the Green family!)

"Q: Why is the bible valid?
A: Because the bible says so.
Not a valid argument.

Q: Why does god exist?
A: Because he knows everything, and he told me.
Not a valid argument."

I am now a divine cheerleader... "Go Judas Go Judas Go Go Go Judas!"

I'd kill myself over this but then God would just kill me.

 

Methinks Big B and many others need to read most of the entires on this site, especially in regards to 'evidence', 'science', 'logical fallacies' etc before they make even bigger fools of themselves!

http://www.skepdic.com/

For what is is worth there is no such thing as 'sin'. There are Actions and Consequences. Such actions and consequences can be judged by others to be 'good' or 'evil' (two more illusory concepts) - but ultimately, it is the rest of society that determines the fate of those who do actions widely regarded as 'sinful'... not imaginary memetical beings or ancient religious fiction.

[ September 24, 2002, 00:03: Message edited by: komei ]

 

And I would suggest you read the Bible, before you do worse than just make a fool of yourself...

Besides it's been around a lot longer than some recent website.

Back to this good and evil stuff eh? "God is the word we use to describe good, and Satan is the word we use to describe evil."

Since when do we use nouns to describe adjectives?

Selective reasoning? We'll uphold logic and fundamental rules when we want, and we'll surpress it when we need to further our arguments? Now where is the "logic" in that?

[ September 24, 2002, 02:35: Message edited by: Big B ]

 

Nutrimat: Much of what you posted in response to Big B represents what I've said. It seems we agree on many points. As for the "Judas was a ******* argument", there are two things to say. First, you say that betraying your friends is wrong. See my post on my opinion of what good and evil are. To classify betrayal as right or wrong requires a treatment of absolute vs relative right / wrong / good / evil. As far as proof that Judas would have been killed... I don't have any. Some accounts tell that he was afraid of this happening. How can I know for sure? It's just that from what I've read, I think he would have been. As far as I'm concerned, we're talking about the contents of a novel, and we can't really ask the authors what they intended by what they said, as they're dead by a good 2000 years. As such, I'm not trying to put anything solid forward, here.

I'm pretty busy at the moment, so only have the time to reply to the first part of Big B's last post (well, the one before that... it was his/her last post when I was typing this up). I might post later when I have more time. For now, I'll address the first three sentences:

1st Sentence: Yup, that's right. It's dodgy.
2nd Sentence: I'm not making up excuses against man or nature. I'm not really sure where you got that idea from. I'm working with the idea that there is no god, here.
3rd Sentence: Nowhere. It is as I maintained all along. You have no proof.

I find it interesting that you keep asking people to read the bible. You can't assume someone hasn't read it because they don't believe it. I suggest you ask someone if they have read it before commanding them to do so.

On another note, either you haven't read the stuff put forward on logic, or you refuse to believe in it.

Xaelifer: Hehe, do I have a fan?

komei: Nicely put. I think Big B and others on his team would benefit from reading about 'logical fallacies'. They have posted some excellent examples of them in this thread.

More from me later.

[ September 24, 2002, 04:10: Message edited by: Judas ]

 

Seeming as though there are some knowledgeable Christians on the message board, I have some questions for you.

Example 1:
========
I am a person living in a yet to be discovered region of Southern America. I am an inherently good person. In fact, in civilized society I would certainly be recognized as a Saint due to the fact that I have devoted my life to helping those less fortunate than myself. Due to our village being so remote, no one has ever visited our society, far less introduced us to Christianity. So my question is will I go to heaven or suffer in hell? What happens to me?

Example 2:
========
I am a person who has devoted their life to furthering the education and development of third world countries. I am an inherently good person. I have devoted 40 years of my life to helping those less fortunate than myself and have given all my money to the cause of helping those who are suffering from hunger, thirst and malnutrition. I attended church when I was young but I felt that it would be a better use of my time and I could help more people if I did not have to take time to go to church and work on my faith. So my question is will I go to heaven or suffer in hell? What happens to me?

Example 3:
========
I am a person who goes to church once a week. I am an inherently good person. I give 10% of my wages to the collection plate at church. I have a sponsor child in Africa. I have two children whom I send to a private school. We enjoy holidays once a year. I have a dog and two cats. So my question is will I go to heaven or suffer in hell? What happens to me?

My questions are posed above.

I was at one point in time a devout Christian until I lost confidence in the church and its position in the Christian faith. I came to thinking about the above situation and what the bible says should happen.

I think the dilemma addressed above is obvious but I would love to discuss this.

[ September 24, 2002, 04:33: Message edited by: Mother T ]

 

a catholic (like myself) should believe that it is the way that you live your life that is important, therefore all three from your examples will go to heaven (but will spend different amounts of time in purgatory).

 

So basically if you are a good person, you will go to heaven but you get held up in purgatory.

What happens if you are any one of those people above yet follow another religion and you get there to find out you were wrong. Do you still go to heaven?

IF the answer is yes, you go to heaven if you are a good person, what is the point of following the religion (except to lessen time in purgatory - which will be finite)?

[ September 24, 2002, 13:49: Message edited by: Mother T ]

 

First of all, I believe that it is not the religion that saves you, it is the faith in Jesus Christ. I also believe that the "Free Will" that have been discussed in here is not completely understood by everyone. So I would give a definition of what I think of this "Free Will", you give your definition/s and see if we are indeed speaking of the same thing. My understanding of "Free Will" is the choice of accepting or rejecting reconcillation with God through Jesus Christ. Don't get me wrong, you might want to argue about the "to sin or not to sin". But personally, what does that amount to when you stand face to face with God? It is still your final choice that decides where you are going to spend eternity. Smoking or non-smoking.

Big B, by reading your post, I assume that your a Protestant. Most of what you have mentioned are things that I am holding on to.

Mother T,

Example 1.
I believe that God will give everybody a chance to exercise their free will. All of us will be able to chose, that means, they will be given the opportunity to know the Gospel (Jesus Christ dying for our sins and that who so ever believed in Him should not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16). There is the "Judgement Day". So whether the people in your given scenario and those that did not heard the Gospel in their lifetime will be judged accordingly. They will know what the issue is and what are the choices and the corresponding outcomes are. And we, as an individual will choose. I can't explain how or tell you when and where but I believe this will come to past.

Examples 2 & 3.
Your salvation is based on your personal relationship with God, not with men. For all I care you can live your life like the devil or Jesus Christ in your lifetime (don't get me wrong, we should strive to be holy and acceptable to God, what I meant is if one doesn't have the time to be good), but your place in eternity stills boils down to whether you are reconcilled with God or not.

Judas and those who believed that the Bible is not a valid source to prove God's existence. For the record, I strongly believe that it is. I have some explainations, so here goes:

First of all, the Bible is the Book of Books, it is actually composed of histories, documentaries, stories, letters, collections of poems and psalms (songs), for a total of 67 books. It was written by dozens of authors inspired by God. In a span of several hundreds of centuries. And all have a single theme, God. And all were written in a single thought, as if only by one author. Well, you can argue that many people can do that. But you do have to consider that some of them have never met each other, know the existence of each other, never read each others writtings, some of them are not educated at all. Authors of diverse cultures, different level of education, different social standings came up with works that showed not only coherency of topic but a single line of thought... an incredible coincidence? Just like the Big Bang Theory?

If you can say that it is not enough to be a proof simply because it was written by men. Then I can claim that every books of history and documentations about every nation in this world is not a valid reference for the nation that they depict. Or every songs and story should not be attributed to the cultures that they define. Why? They are written by men who were inspired by their nation or culture. But why do honor the validity of a nation's history and cultures based on the writtings of men? Because they (the recorders) have experienced it and because it had happened. In the same way, the events described in the Bible were experienced by the authors or by others. Witnesses of these events were mentioned. And these events were even proven by the modern day scientists and historians. So I do not see why you must argue that the Bible is not a valid reference of God's very being.

I believe in science because I have experience it, and in the same way, I believed in what the Bible says because I have experienced it too, in fact billions of people have experienced the goodness of the Bible. You argued that there were many contradictions in the Bible that made you doubt it, what about the science and logic that you believed in? I do not question if you have read the Bible or not. However, I do question how you read the Bible, is it with your head or is it with your heart? What difference that does makes? An eternal destination. Surely, a man of your logical and intellectual capacity can decipher that.

I do not know how I can make you accept that God is just, nor can I explain why God allowed evil to ruin the world. Simply because I do not have the answers, but I wonder why scientist would rather believe in theories that were never proven or have any records that it actually happened ("Big Bang Theory", "Evolutions", etc.). Do you see partiality here?

A parting question. Do you really know when an answer is good enough for you? ...Or does God have to personally come down and tell you?

[ September 24, 2002, 12:23: Message edited by: nior ]

 

Noir, thanks for your reply.

I have a question for you. If you choose not to seek redemption through God in life, when judgement day comes, will you then be given a second chance?

[ September 24, 2002, 12:32: Message edited by: Mother T ]

 

Nior:

Some evidence, please.

No, most certainly NOT in a span like that. Several hundreds of centuries is at least 20000 years. Could we even write back then? Irrespective, Christianity is much younger than that.

You think so? It seems their stories had inconsistencies. Apparently they think differently at least some of the time.

Do you have proof of this? Can you tell me with any level of certainty that one didn't read the other's work before drafting his own?

That is correct. You can. That doesn't unseat my argument, though. Also, if you were to make a claim like that, people would step forward with concrete evidence to prove their points. In their absense, supporters or followers would offer explanations... much like you are attempting to do now, only with some actual proof.

What exactly is involved in "experiencing the bible"?

The head is the bit that thinks, and the heart is the bit that pumps blood, right? Since I'm not trying to move blood, I use my head. Seriously, though, think about it. When we say "think with your heart" we mean "follow your emotions and conscience". We're talking reason, here. We should be using our heads. Besides which, even if we are talking about emotions and consciousness, they don't lead me to believe in a god. I don't feel guilty that I don't believe in god. I don't feel empty because I don't believe in god.

Don't worry about convincing me of that stuff. Let's start small. Let's start with you convincing me he exists, and work our way up. I'm afraid I DON'T see the partiality here. You've said "well, your scientific answer is no more plausible!". When did I offer a scientific answer? I've claimed very little here. I'm here to be convinced of the accuracy of these religious beliefs, not convert you to science.

[ September 24, 2002, 13:41: Message edited by: Judas ]

 

Ehm, and where does he say so? Jesus should die anyway but Judas had a free will, and chose the wrong path. It was not that Judas had no choice, it was not a me or him situation. However, if Judas had believed in Jesus, it would have become a "He (Jesus) INSTEAD of he (Judas) situation, but that goes for all who believe in him. And even after the betrayal of Judas, there was hope for him, if he changed and felt deeply sorry, but he did not.

But I see that you don't agree with the evolution-theory, but your problem is that there are so many different religions. You are true. But I don't think it's just a kind of gambling, choose on religion and hope you chose the right one. Look at the differences between the religions. The christian religion has one thing that no other religion has. In all religions you also have to do a part.... you have to deserve afterlife or in some religions what you become in your next life. And looking at the mess we all make of the earth, I'm glad that we don't have to deserve it by doing good. That makes the christian religion unique.

About proofs: When there would be a proof that the bible is true, there is also the proof that christian religion is true. When there would be a proof, why would we still have religious discussions here? There is no real proof that all in the bible is true. There are remarkable things in the bible, foretellings, parts that fortold written thousands of years before it happend, but it did happen and how could the writer have known that? Still there is no real proof, God doesn't come down to earth visible to show us all that he exists. God asks us to believe in him, and you can't believe in facts, for then it is not Believe but Knowledge. God asks Faith, and when you have strong Faith, you also have the Proof, for Hebrews 11 sais: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope, and certain of what we do not see." I know that's true, for I sometimes know sure that God exists en the Bible is true, but I can understand that it is hard for people without this strong faith to understand that feeling, and they think it is an easy answer, to all questions we can't answer.

The problem is that we are so smart nowadays that we want to prove everything, and when there is no prove, we don't believe it. This started during the industrial revolution it the late 19th century, when technology became better and better. This is why Darwin in 1890 came with his evolution-theory, and why Darwin's Theory was so poular. Human became proud because of their capabilities and possibilities and didn't wanted to be independent, with no one above them.

But the evolution-theory is vague, doesn't know what was before the big bang, it has no real beginning, so that makes it in my eyes a much worse theory then the one of the Creation by God.

Now imagine that there is a God who created the earth. When he is so powerfull that he can create this masterpiece, a puzzle of billions of smaller and larger pieces that all perfectly fit and together create a real piece of art, when that God is so great, then isn't it also kinda logical that we cannot fully understand Him? We want to understand all, and we can understand much, for we are the crown on the creation of the world, put above all other things on earth... but God is much greater then us so might it be possible that we cannot understand all of him, especially since we are weak and do the world much harm?

When you accept the fact that we as small little humans cannot fully understand the mighty great Creator, it becomes already much easier to believe in Him.

 

Actually Judas was sorry for what he had done. That's why gave the money right back to the Pharisees.

The part I don't get is why he goes off and kills himself. Was it the wrong kind of remorse? Or was Judas possessed? (Demon possession was nothing new in those times.) If he was possessed then he didn't willingly commit suicide. And of course God would forgive him. We all know while Jesus was dead He descended into Hell. What do you think happened when Jesus went down into Hell (besides kicking Satan's tail all over the place)? Any insight from anyone?

 

Xaelifer, of course Big B talks about religion. He was asked a religious question. It only follows.

Very condescending of you to claim he's brainwashed. Have you met him? Or do you just assume that everyone who disagrees with you has something mentally wrong with him?

What exactly is the topic here? Do you all want to hear proofs for the existence of God, the authenticity of the Bible, the doctrines of salvation, the validity of Christianity, or what? There are so many paltry attacks going on here that I'm not sure which one takes precedence.

Naturally you see the old pattern. Christians stick up for what they believe and the atheist and agnostic crowd call them stupid.

I'll tell you this much: An impartial reader coming to this discussion would quickly conclude that Big B and the Christians treat their fellow human beings much better. That in itself is a pretty strong argument for Christianity.

 

To all the christians of SP:

Open a bible (no seriously, get one and open it)
go to the first book, you know the one about the old pantheon with 12 gods, you know Iskur, Ninti.

...

No I´m not talking about Genesis here, the biblebook before that one.
Oh wait, silly me. The church removed that one.

Alright then we go to Genesis, I´m sure everyone has that in the bible. Search for the name Lillith, yeah Lillith, Adam´s first wife? Cant find that one too? Oh, well probably ripped out too

Well, then lets search for the biblebook Fillipus, yeah in the new testament, oh wait, has been removed as well!!

Point is: Dont follow a book which has been ripped apart by the church, as far as I know 12 books have been removed during 500 - 1500.

Arise as did the gods Ninti and Ishkur

[ September 24, 2002, 16:20: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Morgoth: Using Sumerian mythological deities and people can hardly counter the validity of the bible. Your point is just as hard to prove as proving the factuality of the sourches of the bible.

[ September 24, 2002, 16:50: Message edited by: Xenecor ]

 

Big B, you compare the relationship between men and God to a shepherd and sheep? So then, God possesses us, we are his creatures? We are then one of two things: either slaves to his will above our own by way of desire to be rewarded or creatures of freedom that are punished for insubordination. Is this the way of a supreme being? Bow to my will, acknowledge my power, have "faith" in me, or I shall with all the power in my breast smite thee I've never smote before?- why? Is he a jealous God? A malevolent God? What need has he to punish mankind? What does it satisfy in him? Is he subject to the emotions we consider flaws (i.e. anger, hatred, envy)? Then why when we "betray" him must he do us harm? How are we doing him harm? Is it even possible for us to do him harm? If so, he's not perfect.

a question posed: if God were vile, and we knew from birth that we would be rewarded in the afterlife for doing evil acts, and we were raised on this very notion of a cutthroat world, and we had very little conception of pity or remorse, would you still be pious? That is, would you still believe in God and worship him? Or would you have rebelled against God and become a heretic?

Amon-Ra

[ September 24, 2002, 17:00: Message edited by: Amon-Ra ]

 

Mother T,

I can't really answer about the second chance that you have asked about. But probably this might help. This is what I believe might happen, if judgement day come and we are alive, probably, we might get a last chance (we may already have several opportunities). But if we are death, that is beyond me already. I said this because it was never mentioned if there will still be people living or the human race is simply wipe-out. But definitely, the judgement day (the event) was mentioned in Revelations. All I can assure you is that it is going to be a fair trail.

BTW it's nior not noir. Just four letters but it has a completely different meaning. "nior" is my shortcut for junior, while "noir" means black in French (or Italian, though my pendulum sways toward the "F" one).

 

Amon-ra: God will not smite you because you will not obey him or do not believe in him. You will simply be omitted from his protection. Therefore, you are the one allowing yourself to be omitted. It is not God who is punishing you. You will be punishing yourself.

A shepherd keeps the herd together. A definition of herd is "a group of people usually having a common bond." Those allowing God to shepherd them through life have their faith in God to bond them.

[ September 24, 2002, 18:36: Message edited by: Xenecor ]