When to DC my Kensai?

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Im playing through with a multiplayer party consisting of a MC ranger/cleric, a MC fighter/mage, Edwin and a kensai im planing on duel classing to a thief.
I dont know any of the specific bonuses the kensai gets as it levels but im gonna play all the way through SoA And ToB so i should reach a respectable level by the end... OR do you people just recomend i use a different 'backstabbing happy' character such as a MC fighter/thief or an Assasin?

And while asking questions tied up with this party can i get both strongholds for my Ranger/Cleric? Is there an order you should get them in like there is for a fighter/mage?
Thnx in advance for your feedback...

 

Don't dual before 13 level - you'll get an abysmal number of attacks per round.

If you're for letting him be weak for a long time, and then - SUPER, dual him at 21 level. Kensai 21/Thief 28 is the best.

 

Eww, Even a dragon must run in panick after seeing that backstab

I'd take a MC fighter/thief though. 1.25mil exp, that takes some time before your party has a lv1 thief

 

I generally recommend the F/T MC as well. However, if you do decide on a kenai-thief DC, I would go the opposite of Kulyok though. I'd say you wouldn't want to wait PAST level 13 to dual class. Simply put, if you wait beyond level 13, it's going to take forever to get your kensai levels back. What's the point of having a kensai-thief dual class, if you play nearly the entire game as either a kensai or a thief, and are only a kensai-theif for the end game?

Basically, I'd look at it like this:

You start at level 7. This gives you three uses of the kai ability, and you already have 3 damage increases and 3 speed increases. There really isn't anything wrong with dual classing immediately.

There's really no point at DC at level 8. The kensai only gains another level, a reduction of 1 in THAC0, and whatever his HP bonus comes out to.

Level 9 is a popular level, because this is the last level that you get a d10 roll for hp (maximizing the hp benefit) plus you get an additional kai ability, and an additional speed and damage bonus.

Just like level 8, there really isn't much point at dualling at level 10 or 11, because you only get 3 measly hitpoints and a reduction of one to THAC0.

Level 12 gives you yet another speed and damage bonus, and another additional use of the kai ability. However, if you waited this long, you may as well wait until level 13, where you get an extra half attack per round.

Beyond that, you only get a speed and damage bonus every three levels thereafter, so a kensai at say level 21, isn't THAT much better than a kensai at level 13. Sure a level 21 kensai is better, but you have a fully functional kensai thief as soon as you are Kensai 13/Thief 14. This is literally MILLIONS of experience points sooner than a Kensai 21/Thief 22 character. In fact, you'll have to earn an addtional 3,760,000 experience points to get both your classes active if you dual at 21 as opposed to 13 (2 million more for the kensai, and 1,760,000 more for the thief).

 

Level 21 does allow you to max out the THAC0 (or is that minimize?). I believe for 13th level you have a THAC0 of 4 and at 21st level it's -7. Not that it really matters much with the weapons you'll be using.

 

I solo'd SoA and TOB with a DC'd Kensai Mage and switched at level 12. Believe me, you'll have more than enough power and you also get your levels back relatively quickly.

Just my personal experience with a Kensai Mage, never tried a Kensai Thief. You might be able to get away with a higher level due to the quick leveling of the thief, but I wouldn't count on it too much.

 

I agree with Magalance on Kensai-Mage point. You have access to Improved Haste here, this way the number of attacks is really unimportant.

Kensai\Mage, dualled at 9 level, is also good. The problem is, that bonuses of Kensai are not that good here, so for dualling at 9 level it's better to use Bercerker instead, for Immunities and bracers alone.

 

Kensai[13]/Thief[x] is the way to go.

You get another 'Kai' ability and other bonuses every 4 levels. A fighter gets weapon proficiencies every 3 levels. Thus L12 is of significance when considering dualing.
However 1/2 an extra attack is good and it only gets better with improved haste.

It doesn't take long for a thief to level up, just disarm traps and unlock chests everywhere.

 

To answer your question in the most infuriating way possible...it depends. If the four characters you listed are the only ones that you will be using, I would say go for level 15 before dual classing. The extra proficiency, kensai bonus, and saving throws will be worth it (thieves' saving throws are horrible if you didn't already know). However if you expand your group to five or six, all of a sudden experience will be at a premium and make it more of a hassle getting the inactive levels back, so level 13 would make more sense here.

 

Ok, thnx a lot everyone for the indepth asnswers. My kensai is lvl 11 now and im pretty sure she'll be dueling to a thief at 13. I can already feel the power....

 

Let me point out some base THAC0 information:

Thief-22 -> THAC0 10 (This is max for thief classes)

Fighter-21 -> THAC0 0 (This is max for fighter classes)
Fighter-13 -> THAC0 8
Fighter-12 -> THAC0 9
Fighter-9 -> THAC0 12

The only reason for dual classing after level 13 is to improve the THAC0. It might be worth it, but IMO it takes too long time.

When dual classing to a thief at or below level 13 the fighter THAC0 is almost irrelevant since you'll reach THAC0 10 as a thief later.

 

But a Kensai gets -1 bonus to THAC0 every 4 levels, right?
Add to that GM bonuses and weapon bonuses.

IIRC my Kensai had some -6 THAC0 when dualing CF and Malakar.

@Earl
Assuming the charecter is a Kensai[13]/Thief[15] weilding a +5 weapon in which he has GM (unnerfed), what will be the THAC0, damage bonuses and number of attacks due to each charecteristic?

 

Uhhh, im confused now. My kensai had 5 proficiency points in long swords and everything seemed to be going ok till i tried backstabbing the 1st time as a kensai/thief using a longsword +3 - and it said that i was using an improper weapon or some such (i.e. i couldnt backstab with a longsword) and id always thought thieves could backstab with any melee weapon they could be proficient with. I mean whats wrong with mi' long sword?

 

There're some bugs in the game, for example, you can't backstab with Valygar's katana, because thieves can not use it. It could be the same with your sword (what's its name ?).
Try another longsword and check out the creature you're backstabbing, as well.

 

You were a GM with LS as a Kensai, now you are just a Thief until you regain your levels. When you dualed you lost all your abilities as a Kensai.
If you check your charecter record page (press 'r' in-game) you will find that it only lists the proficiencies you picked after you dualled.

Obviously you are no longer proficient with LSs. Also, check you THAC0 status. At high THAC0 you aren't going to hit anything.
Dont put any more points in LS as a thief. They wont be reflected when you regain your Kensai levels.

You aren't trying to backstab golems or other such constructs are you. They can't be backstabbed.

 

@Shrikant
My post above concerned base THAC0, not effective THAC0.

For reference here are the advantages and disadvantages of the Kensai: