Monks vs Paladins

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Self explanatory title it's comparing Monks and Paladins to decide who's the best.

Ok here are the monks advantages and Disadvantages.

Advantages:
- The monk can make one unarmed attack per round; he gains one additional
attack every 3 levels.
- As the monk increases in levels, the damage his fists inflict does as
well:
- Level 1-2: 1-6
- Level 3-5: 1-8
- Level 6-8: 1-10
- Level 9-14: 1-12
- Level 15+: 1-20
- A monk's natural armor class gets better as he goes up in levels. His
armor class starts off at 9, and then decreases by 1 for every 2
levels.
- Stunning blow, once per day for every 4 levels. All attacks in the next
6 seconds force the victim to save or be stunned. Note: This special
ability automatically modifies a monk's normal attack, no targeting
needs to be done.
- Monks have the Deflect Missiles ability. This gives them a -1 to their
AC vs missiles for every 3 levels.
- The monk gains a +2 to save vs. spells.
- A monk starts off moving at +2 move, then +1 move every 5 levels.
- 5th level: Immunity to all diseases, and cannot be Slowed or Hasted.
- 7th level: Lay on Hands to heal 2 hit points per level.
- 8th level: -1 to speed factor.
- 9th level: +1 to all saves. Immune to charm. The monk's fist is
considered a +1 weapon (+2 at 12th, +3 at 15th).
- 11th level: Immune to poison.
- 12th level: Another -1 to speed factor.
- 13th level: Quivering Palm spell once per day. This spell gives them
one hand attack. If they hit an opponent, the opponent must save or
die.
- 14th level: The monk gains 3% magic resistance per level (ie. 42% at
14th level).
- 20th level: Immune to non-magical weapons.

ToB:

- 21st level: +1 AC
- 24th level: +2 AC
- 25th level: Fists become +4 weapons
- 27th level: +3 AC
- 30th level: +4 AC
- 35th level: +5 AC
- 40th level: +6 AC

Disadvantages:
- The monk cannot wear armor.
- A monk can only uses weapons available to the thief class (except 2
handed).

ToB:

- Magic Resistance capped at 78%

And the Joe Sixpack Paladin:

Advantages:
- Can specialize in a weapon
- Can use any weapon, wear any armor
- Lay on Hands ability to heal quickly
- Can Turn Undead
- +2 to all saving throws
- Can instantly cast Protection from Evil and Detect Evil

Disadvantages:
- Must be human
- Must be Lawful Good
- If you do any "Evil" act, you lose your Paladin status

Ok by now if your still reading you are probably wondering what the hell I am on about, well it seems Looking at the stats of the Monk and comparing it with the Paladin and it's kits, and all the equipment that a Paladin can exclusively use that they are potentially a much better class especially the Inquisitor as a mage killer comparison, and yet the sniviling and pathetic (imo) Monk takes all the spotlight that the Paladin rightfully deserves for his/her prowess.

Now I'm not exactly a Paladin lover at least not on the Chevelier scale but I want to know why Monks who don't seem to have anything better then the Paladin other then speed factor, AC, Immunity to disease and poision, and Immunity to anything that affects speed whuch is more of a disadvantage because he cannot be hasted. MR is no advantage because its capped at 78, when the Paladin can get 80 after level four of watchers keep and certain MR items including the all-powerful Carsomyr and 90 MR if the Paladin is the PC after SoA, all this on top of the excellent saves you can get with the ring of Gaxx, Helm of Balduran, Amulet of Seldarine, the standard +2 just for been a Paladin and the hell trials give another +2, that's a bonus +8 to all saving throw's, 4 above the monk! and more then enough to save vs his deathblow and whatnot's, there's probably more items I'm forgetting but I cant remember Right now.

And then there is the monk's so called speed advantage which the Paladin can answer with an Improved haste, and on top of the Paladins advantages over the monk he can also cast spell's which may only be low level but is still a big advantage if taken seriously and used properly.

I'm sorry to any monk fan's out there that I may have offended by all this but I'm trying to give the Paladin some of the recognition I think he deserves, but I'd also like to hear arguements in favour of the monk as well.

EDIT: I just started a new game and consoled the Monk to level 40 and his normal AC was not much higher if any at all that a Paladin could get with a sword and sheild, and his only advantage seems to be his AC against Missles and again there is the boot's of grounding and sheild of missles and the cloak of displacement for the Palidin to reach that, and even if he never is as high it should still be plenty on top of normal AC, is there anyone that can tell me if Monks can use cloaks, rings, boots etc as I've never played one before, my comparisions are based on the class description of the monk, I do however have expirience with the Cavilier.

[ December 08, 2003, 17:09: Message edited by: casey ]

 

Well quite a few of the things you cited assumes that the paladin has access to those cool equipment or a friendly mage (to cast improved haste or the ring of gaxx that only lasts very short).

Besides the monk is not primarily a warrior. She fulfills a scout and mage killer role than an upfront tank. She just needs to survive traps and enemy spells to fulfill those functions which he does very well even without equipment (assuming she survives the initial low class levels LOL).

 

Well yeah I'm assuming that the Paladin has access to lot's of really good equipment, no one is disputing who is better without equipment who is obviously the Monk I'm disputing who is better overall that means all equipment and options included.

But I looked at the Monk and realised some of my arguing was hasty, the Monk can actualy get just as good saves as the Paladin and can also wear equipment to cap their MR at 100+.

Note: I'll go edit my first post since I only realize now how stupid it sounds so more people will actually read past the first couple of sentences.

 

*cough* Carsomyr..

 

*cough* instant death blow if you fail your save... (monk)

 

*cough*..*almost chokes himself*

bah... Fight in a dead-magic zone and see what the resoult will be

Paladin is the stronger IMO

 

As a mage-killer, inquisitor is probably better. Probably - just because some multiplayer human mage might actually have remembered to hide behind immunity to abjuration. Otherwise, uberdispel rocks. A monk will perhaps make saves more likely, but he won't bite through mage protections. What's more, freedom of movement is permanent and unremovable with inquisitor. In BG2 realia, this only saves you a ring slot, but it's a powerful advantage in its own right.

As a high-damage melee, cavalier will definitely be better. Slightly lesser AC, more HP to spare. Cavalier can turn undead. Spells being allowed to him, contrary to inquisitor, he can also protect himself from draining at higher levels. He can draw upon holy might for abysmal stat increase. There's also detect invisible, dispel magic (even if low-level), several protections, some buffs - personal or whole party. In fact, there's even restoration on higher levels. Ah, and he can scout. Yea, pallies can sneak. Sanctuary, hmmm... Immunity to fear and the ability to prevent or dispel fear in others once per level gets rid of the problem of fear-causing enemies for good. Poison immunity is total, just like with monk. Then, there's also some immunity to fire. Stacks nicely with what you get from wearing Firkraag

In undead bashing, undead slayer will rule. Nothing that he has is all so exclusive - everything can be achieved through some basic spells, but it's surely handy not to have to memorise and cast them. Spells as cavalier. Monk has nothing especially useful against undead. And can be drained, whereby deprived of his wondrous powers in a heart's beat.

I think the argument of monk's usefulness not being dependant on items used isn't really valid. Monk is especially designed so as to hold his own without items. It's sort of class feature, same as weapon on armour allowance. Note that a monk still has to resort to enchanted weapons on some occasions.

 

@Gothmog4230

Sorry for that comment.. I'm very tired today and its monday... *yawn*

 

Paladins are better tanks too. We must not forget that armour also absorbs damage from slashing, piercing, etc. So although you can argue the AC difference is small, that only means the two have the same probability of avoiding a hit. But when they DO get hit, the monk would take full damage whereas the paladin has damage-absorbing armour (and shield). Plus monks won't have the HP to rely upon.

In my experience, using a monk to tank, even with ring of gaxx, Ioun stone of regeneration and stunning blow to disable some enemies, isn't as effective.

A rebuttal to what I said would be monks CAN wear Keldorn's plate mail, but that's another story.

 

I am a monk lover, and i am deeply deeply offended, just kidding i aint played monk in a while though so plaese forgive me if some of my information is wrong.

This is just with your level ups, time you add items MR bonus's it can go much higher.

Thing your forgetting here is that speed advantage eventually catches up with haste, (i think, aint 100% on this.) But 1 thing for sure is that its permanment, so you got the speed boost all the time. Saves one extra of boots of speed for someone else, and opens up a slot of one of the other boots out there.

Yes they can, you must have realised this when you started your new game. Items combined with their saving throws can be even better than a Paladins.

Monks have the most damaging weapon in the game, there fists. Its like they are weilding 2 katanas, when they reach height of their power. Along with 4 attacks (again not 100% sure on this). This is pretty devastating in its self, and time you get things like Greater Whirlwind Attack, most things won't last a round. yeah untill level 25, you only +3 weapons, but pick yourself up a good staff of Rhynn to deal with any monstors that need a +4 weapon.

You just got to look at all the immunities the monk gets.
-All diseases
-Slow
-Haste (ok this is bad, but in the long run it really matter)
-Poison
-non-magical weapons (ok time u get this most enemies will have magical weapons, but still a nice perk)

And the time all your AC bonus's add up coupled up with your high dex (if you don't , you should) and items, you can get a very low AC, easily as good as a Paladin's.

Alot of people overlook the stunning, and instead concentrate on the Quivering Palm, which is a great ability, but i will talk about that after. Stunning blow renders your victim helpless. While stunned what can they do. And you can easily pound them to pieces. if you combine this Whirland Attack cahnces are even a fairly high level creatue is going to fail their save. Now the Quivering Palm, you don't even need to cast spells like Doom and Malison (although its preferable you do) to kill a dragon. Sure you can do this with finger of death., but then you got the long casting time, whereas, QP does not.

What a shame... With all your AC bonus's who needs armor (btw, i think if you meet the required stats your monk can wear Keldorn's army, how ironic considering this is a Monk vs Paladin thread). Only restricted to two handed weapons, u don't need any weapons (well maybe the odd 1 or 2 encounter). You start the game with your fists just as powerful as a katana.

Don't get me wrong, i like the Paladin classes aswell, but i think the overall, all the advantages that monk gets makes it a better class in general. paladins are more specialised, and monk will not be as good as killing mages as an Inquisitor is, and likewise not a good as killing demons and undead, as the cavalier and undead hunter are.

Things that annoy me about the monk is that, when i play with one i know i am gonna have the pass up on very armors and weapons, cause i know my hands are better than all weapons (damage wise)and my natural AC will make up for lack of armor. But i will be missing out on all the cool abilities and protections that come with weapons, armors, helmets, and shields. Take the exclusive Paladin weapon, Carsomyr. If your a magic user this weapon is your worst nightmare. 50% magic resistance, dispel magic on hit(+6 upgraded version).

Anyway just my thoughts, hope i won't too incorrect with my information.

 

It's a matter of playing technique , taste and personal opinion .

I hate to be such a stuck in the mud, and I think this fence might just break any second now .

But it is personal preference. For example, I never saw what could be so good about a multi-class F/M/T. Just like a bard I thought. However, i recently took to try and solo a F/M/T (my first solo ) and its great fun, and the character is now extremely powerful

 

Yeah, i solo'd a F/M/T through BG2 and TOB, lots of fun, you got combat skills, (you can actually hit things with ther staff a magi). You can cast mage spells, and use theif skills, for those pesky traps. And on top of that, access to all of their HLAs. The game doesn't get as boring as with a single class character in solo imo, because of the variety the class offers.

EDIT: This thread has given me the idea to write a comprehensive(hope i spelt that right)study on Monks. I've played the game enough times with one, i swear i saw a guide on Sorcerers Place for Monk before, but i can;t seem to find it. Anyway it could take a while, cause i gotta play the game the whole way through again to explore all tactics and possibilities for items and stats etc. But with a bit of luck i can get the basics done in the next few days. If anyone wants to help, just email me. jd.glover@ntlworld.com

thanks

 

I could give you a hand with this mate. I have a fair bit of spare time on my hands .

Just let me know what you want me to do.

 

Ah its great to have a fellow Englishman here.

Anywho, the plan is to create a complete guide on a monk. This is what it will include.

1.What is a Monk?
-Class decription
-Analysis of advantages and disadvantages

2.Character creation
-Idea Characteristic stats
-When and where to put those proficiencies
-Which HLAs to choose

3.How to use your monk?
-What role does your monk play in the party
-How to use those nifty skills effectively
-Various tactics - general tactics
- particulary hard encounters.

4.How to equip your monk
-What items are avaliable to your monk, and whats to best to use
-Fists vs Weapons

5.Roleplaying your monk
-Ideal party for your Monk.
-LG,LN,LE - does it matter?
-Soloing your monk

6.Why play a monk
-Advantages and disadvantages over other similar character choices, i.e Wizard slayer, Paladin & kits.
-How to get the best experience from your monk.

if anyone can think of anything else they want included please say so.

So Morsmordre, if you think you can explore anythose i would highly appreciate it.

Sorry for turning this thread into something totally off topic. But i will include some stuff about Monk vs Paladin.

Thanks

[ December 11, 2003, 15:56: Message edited by: Deathmaster ]

 

Why don't you just make a multiplayer game, make a paladin AND a monk, and have the best of both worlds? In the case of which one is better...I can't answer that right now

 

In ToB I find Paladins to be more powerful due to a certain +6 two-handed sword.

Still the whole 'who is better' idea is old and is always inconclusive. If you put them toe to toe in a 1v1 with same expiernece points it would all come down to the dice roll

In my opinion they are equal, like every other class compared to every other class.
"What? Bard stronger than Sorcerer?" you say? Well considering how AD&D is more of a tactical RPG than an action 1v1 rpg, yes, all are equal for they each provide something to their group.

 

By all accounts, I said the Blade can kill a Sorcerer, but in no way did I imply that just because of this, Blades are thus better.
I also happen to like Sorcerers very much too, you know.
My first and most memorable game was with one.

Class wise, the Monks gets my vote. But when every item in the game is taken into strict consideration, I'll go with the Paladdins.

 

If you compare the classes from XP 0 to 8M, i think the paladin wins. Even at mage killing...
The monk resists (at high level) any magic, but agains the stoneskin, it can't do anything. My inquisitor's dispell magic rules all the time...
No doubt at all!

 

I'm going to turn the tables on the Paladin by pointing out his advantages and disadvantages compared to the Monk now. And also there's a few things no one else has pointed out yet, and make some of my own points

The Paladin can get high enough saving throws to save vs anything with all the right equipment after level 20 and the hell trials. (unless Malison'd, Chanted, and Doomed)

More of a convenience feature then a real help, since the level two Priest spell does the exact same thing, but from a Role play view how could a Cavalier feel fear and still be a Cavilier?

I'm not certain but can't Monk's wear the Amulet of Power?

Yeah since that's just a bug that can be exploited.

A full level Monk without Items AC is -9 and with Dakkons Zerth, ** in single weapon style the various other protections (rings, Ioun stones, cloaks etc) could go to about, -17 at least, which is better then the Paladin but the Paladin can cast Armour of faith for damage resistance.

In movement speed yes, but the Paladin with Improved haste Belm and two weapon style can get 9 attacks a round, saving those HLA's for things like Critical strike, but it's temporary only and the monk get's GWW, and the Paladin will lose his MR bonus.

The Paladin can use th CF/weapon of choice combo which is about as effective as Stunning blow although I'm not certain on that.

I know it's off topic to reply to this but I coulden't resist, Bard's rock they don't suck there better fighters then the F/M/T (potentially) especially the Blade, don't get me started but this has been argued to death already, so onto the next reply it is.

Which is useless against Spell Immunity: Abjuration.

Most Character classes that can cast 2 or 3 Spell Immunity's wear the Cloak of reflection and be a decent fighter could easily wipe the floor with any Mage or Sorcerer

Also I like spell casters myself and try to make all my parties have a good mix of fighting (not melee, melee according to the dictionary means a "confused skirmish" so therefore melee=chaosed character hitting the closest person to him ) and spellcasting so I normally only have one or two out of six wearing armour that's not Elven.


Now as for my own thought's I didn't realize last night on posting the Monk's bonus +1 to saves on top of other item's that he's +1 above the Paladin, I'm not sure if the monk has Ioun stones that give him save +'s (Wong Fei's Ioun stone?) but the Paladin has Helm of Baulduran to make up for it and can cast chant for another +.

Also Paladins possibly have the best stat rolls in the game my highest evenly distributed Stat point scores was:
S16
D16
C16
W16
I15
C17


And that's all that comes to mind at the moment.

Peace out.

Edit: Is it worth getting the Carsomyr+6 instead of the upgraded Purifyer (whatever it is?)

All the upgraded Carsomyr does as far as I know of is give an extra +1 to hit and damage and 3 Dispel's per day which you get with the upgraded Purifier anyway, and the normal Carmomyr alway's Dispel's magic on hit for me.

[ December 09, 2003, 11:56: Message edited by: casey ]

 

I've had better with a non-paladin, but does it matter? You can make a reroll if you're not satisfied, and you being a paladin shouldn't give any better stats?