Daystar and Backstab

Remove all ads!

I notice that whenever I attack an undead with Daystar, I get two damage lines that look like:

Aldeth does 10 Damage to Skeleton Warrior
Aldeth does 10 Damage to Skeleton Warrior

I assume that the two damage lines is because Daystar does double damage to undead. Does the same apply to the backstab, or would only the first damage by multiplied by the appropriate amount?

Further, I still don't understand how the game calculates the backstab in terms of what is multiplied, and what isn't. I know your strength adjustment is added in after the multiplication takes place. Additionally, if you do elemental damage, that is also not multiplied. But what about bonus damage from the +damage on the weapon, or additional damage you do if you're a fighter/thief multi-class or dual-class from a weapon proficiency?

Help!

 

The backstab issue will be irrelevant with daystar because the only enemies you will score double damage against will be immune to backstab anyway. Specialisation will be multiplied when backstabbing. The level based damage bonus for being a Kensai will also be multiplied, if that is your thief's first/second class or if you are cheating. The main bonus of a weapon will be multiplied. For example, when using the "Staff of the Ram+6" 1d6+9 or so (don't remember exactly what the damage bonus is) will be multiplied but the additional piercing damage will not be as it is a secondary effect.

 

Why? There's lots of undead monsters that aren't immune to backstab. Off the top of my head I'm positive you can backstab vampires, ghasts, and shadows, and I'd imagine even mummies and skeleton warriors aren't too big for a backstab.

Also, I see I didn't give enough information for my initial question to be answered. I'm playing a multi-classed fighter-thief, and I have two points in longswords. I still am not sure what you mean in your response of undead being immune to backstab.

 

In PnP, undead are immune to backstab, but in BG2, you can backstab vampires, shadows and mummies.

 

3e maybe, but I'm not sure about 2e. Anybody else have a 2e reference book for once?

 

In the game, the only monsters I couldn't backstab were beholders (they saw me coming ) and dragons (I don't know why either). I wish I has 2e books, but all I have are 3/3.5e.

 

I know second edition rules said the creature had to be about humanoid in size, which would effectively rule out beholders and dragons. That having been said, I don't know if "demihuman" size means literally size, or approximately humanoid- shaped. For example, fire giants are nowhere near humanoid size, but they're roughly the same shape as a humanoid.

It's been a long time since I did PnP, but I have no memory of anything ever stating your couldn't backstab undead.

 

Whether or not they should be immune, backstab will only multiply the melee damage and not the bonus damage (engine funk).

 

From what i've learned the damage multiplier is used for:

1. Base weapon damage (1d10 for example)
2. The bonus damage for enchanted weapons such as +1
3. Proficiency damage
4. Class bonus damage such as the kensai.

It may multiply extra damage like Staff of the Ram's +10 after the basic 1d6+6 is added. I'm not sure about this though

 

You guys must not have the fixpack installed if you can backstab undead.

 

The problem with all that is is the fact that other than the nature of dragons and barbarians. I've never heard of not being able to backstab undead. Basically all of my knowledge is second edition. not third edition.

I will type the restrictions the second edition players handbook gives.

"Backstabbing does have limitations. First, the damage multiplier applies only to the first attack made by the thief, even if multiple attacks are possible. Once a blow is struck, the initial surprise effect is lost. Second, the thief cannot use it on every creature. The victim must be generally humanoid. part of the skill comes from knowing just where to strike. A thief could backstab an ogre, but he would be able to do the same to a beholder. The victim must also have a definable back (which leaves out most slimes, jellies, oozes, and the like). Finally the thief has to be able to reach a significant target area. To backstab a giant, the thief would have to be standing on a ledge or window balcony. Backstabbing him in the ankle just isn't going to be as effective.

So there really is nothing that discounts undead as a backstab target in the core description of Second Edition. In fact other than skeletons or unusual undead like undead mounts and the like. it fairly suggests that they are just as vulnerable to backstab as anything else that is humanoid. AFter all you don't have to totally obliterate the bodies of undead in AD&D to kill them.

 

2e actually makes them immune to backstab as well, since stabing a zombie in the heart or lung isn't going to hurt it any more than stabbing it in the leg.....

 

undead are definitly not immune to backstab as the rules indicated they only have to be humaniod in shape, not know that you are there, and it has to be in the back. Undead being immune is a 3rd edition idea that makes sense but was not in play in 1st or second edition in the standard rule set.

Remember there are a lot of rules that didn't make much sense in 2nd edition that is why they made 3rd so different is so to eliminate (and create) some of these weird rules and unlikely situations.

 

Backstabbing is not so silly if we consider vampires, after all what does it mean to drive a stake through a vampire's heart? Ok... it's silly since a character would have to do it from behind.

 

@Caradhras: Eh...as long as the stake goes in at one end and out through the other...preferably with the heart in between.

But seriously though, I don't see why Undead cannot be backstabbed...especially in 2E. 3E is another matter altogether though...