Thoughts on Fighter/Mages in the expansion

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These are a few ideas i've had about fighter/mages in the expansion...

1.Dual class f/ms arn't as good over multis as they used to be beacause of the new, near essential high lvl abilities. If you imported that nice kensai dualled to mage at lvl 13 then he would *suck*. You could still make a good dual class but it would take more effort and still not much better than a multi (if any better).

2.Beserker/mages may be better than kensai/mage (or maybe equal) because they can wear that awesome +5 elven chain which only has 2 worse AC than the best and gives protection from normal weapons.

3.I also think that the fact that f/ms can now cast the 9th lvl spell time stop could make them quite powerful (draconis and mellisan anyone) except there are a few enermies that are immune to it's effects. Another thing is that they will have acess to spell trigger, chain contingeancy black blade of disaster, energy blades and abseloute immunity which are also very good.

4.The other problem with a dual is that the high level mage abilities are little use to a fighter so many of those spells are wasted beacause the fighter would rather use time stop instead, no doubt.

5.After all this I think a multi class is definately the way to go. I'm not sure weather a gnome, an elf, or a half elf would be most suited but I'm sure they would all be very poweful.

I'd be glad to hear any comments of surgestions and I'm sorry if this post is a bit long.

Cheers, Void.

 

Hi Void,


Some minor spoilers below, up to chapter 3:


I thought a bit about this when I started my first SOA/TOB game a few weeks ago. I had my Elven F/M from BG1 who had excellent stats from all those tomes and wondered whether I should ditch him for a new kensai/mage instead.

I am glad I didn't as he is very powerful now. He can fight hard and also support the tanks with his bow and magic. He is level 11/12 f/m and his party consists of minsc, keldorn, jaheira, aerie and yoshi (soon to be Imoen when I rescued her - I use magic alot!)

He has a armor class of -4 and I use magic to buff him before committing him to battle - stoneskin, blur, mirror image and improved visibility and he can duke it with the best. I used him to clear out the vamps in chapter 3 and he pretty much did it on his own with the Cfury, improved haste from kangaxx ring and the amulet of power. I was surprised how often the vamps got stunned by the sword, however I did have Aerie throw in a greater malison at each major fight so I guess that made the difference. He did need help from minsc with Bodhi though, that girl hits hard and fast and went through my stoneskin, mirror image combo really quickly.
I have generally used his magic to support Aerie when softening up the enemy and taking down enemy mages protections and then recently having been adding a couple of protections if he doesn't already have them and send him into support the minsc/keldorn tanks.
Previous to a few days ago I was keeping him back with a bow.
I think the big advantage is the high level abilities in TOB. If I was just playing SOA I would have been tempted to go with a kensai/mage or beserker/mage since my playing style woudl have been ok with types as well.
However, at 3million I will have access to both fighter and mage abilities, and because the experience cap is raised to 8million in TOB have some chance to get lvl 9 spells before the end I guess. Because, I will have Imoen and Aerie as main mages, my f/m makes a great backup mage and backup fighter. In fact he has some great advantages over a pure fighter - all those spell protections that can normally only be cast on caster.

I guess ultimately it depends how you want to play your combi fighter/mage. If you want a high hitpoint mage who can fight in the second line and will get high level spells quickly then a dual kensai is better. If you want backup mage for your main casters who can stand in the front line with the best then a m/c is the way to go.
Those high level fighter abilities do look awesome, I hope theytaste as good as they look - another couple of weeks of real time before I get up to 3 million exp.

I think the same argument applies to the mc f/t and dual f/t. If it was just SOA then kensai/thief is teh way to go. However, the mc f/t with TOB high abilities now thrown in make the mc version much more powerful. Who cares that a dual kensai/thief has +4 THACO and +4 DAM if dualed at level 12 and has a extra +1 THACO and +2 damage from grand master. My mc f/t will have access to those great fighter abilities at 3million exp and easily make up for that minor short fall. Also, I don't need 30 levels of thieving skills, my mc characters 20 or so levels will do just fine.
Of course, I am making the assumption that I can use the fighter abilities during backstabbing?? The use any item ability looks good as well. That would allow him to dual wield that monks japanese short sword (ninja-do?) with the extra attack I saw from the merchant in the copper coronet and the celestica fury - a fair dual wield with some historical real world examples I feel. Again I wonder whether dual wielding works with backstabbing?

At present, my next character is going to be mc fighter/thief, elven for the chance of 19 dex, long sword bonus and the romances.

I did consider the swashbuckler - but the lack of a backstab put me off, I have had a lot of fun with yoshimo's backstab and trap setting and will miss it when I swop him for Imoen. However, after Yoshi has scouted and set a couple of traps and done a backstab or two I am not using him much in the battle because he just doesn't hit very well, I usually drop him back with his bow and use him to ride shotgun for Aerie.
Also Imoen will be my main mage since she will be capable of getting high lvl spells much sooner than either Aerie or myself. I did consider switching Aerie for Nalia, but then I would lose Aerie's cleric spells and end up with two Imoen style characters.

I guess I could drop Imoen but I feel that my party should consist at a minimum of Imoen, Jaheria and me as a core with support from others when needed - the story just feels its been written this way and who am I to fight it! - my next party will probably be more radical.

I think I will start a new game with a mc f/t in a week or so and alternate between both games.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on a bit, I thought BG1 was good but I am just having so much fun with SOA!

Cheers,

WittyNewt.

 

I agree with your observation about high level abilities. The fighter ones were awesome (hardiness, whirlwind, etc). The mage spells were nice, but I just did not find myself using them as much. It may just be my play style, but having my main and Minsc destroying everything in their path with incredible melee abilities was too much fun.

I am playing IWD right now. But when I am done, I plan to play BG1 through TOB with the same character, and I am thinking multi-class F/M.

 

I took my half-elf F/M from BG1 to TOB (including ToSC), and I have to say it was well worth it. I ended up with excellent stats thanks to the tomes (BG1) and Lum's Machine (BG2); and I have the powerful abilities from TOB. It was interesting to develop a character to that extent. Depending on the opponent, I can hack it to pieces with my fighting ability or blast him to pieces with my magic. My character seemed flexible enough make all of the games fun.

 

Well, ToB is definitely a game that requires more fighter power than SoA. That helps the multi version, as does having access to both types of powers. But I think you are overstating the case somewhat. Multi F/Ms aren't going to have access to the high end spells (except via scroll) for much of the game unless you are playing solo or nearly so.

In SoA it was possible to create a dual Fighter-Mage who was every bit as good in both classes as either single class character would be. That isn't possible in ToB, but I don't think that's quite the same thing as saying they 'suck'.

It seems to me that a dual in ToB is a strong mage who can serve as a second string fighter, while the multi is a strong fighter who can be a good back up wizard.

Aloha
Vormaerin

Edit: I'd go with a gnome since they get the advantage of being a specialist mage even though multi class. YMMV, though.

[This message has been edited by Vormaerin (edited October 12, 2001).]

 

Yeah I guess I shouldn't say they "suck" , I guess if you dualled your kensai or whatever just when he got greater whirlwind of a few in critical stike and smite he could easily be just as good. Thanks for replying everyone who did, I'm gonna make my half-elf f/m multi today, along with a sorcerer and afew NPCs (Haer'dalis and Jaiheira mainly). I also think I should say that I found out that druids can raise dead with mass raise dead which makes them far better than a cleric in many ways.

Also thanks Wittynewt, your post was great.

Cheers, Void.

[This message has been edited by void (edited October 13, 2001).]

 

I don't think you can dual from fighter to mage after obtaining greater whirlwind and still get to a high enough level with your mage to enjoy the nenefits of the fighter abilities.

multiclassing is the way to go. I don't know why evedryone keeps saying that you don't get near the XP cap until the very very end of the game. I think I started getting high level abilities while I was still in underdark and I hit the XP cap before I got out of Sendai's lair.

You can definitely count on getting at least 6 million xp by the time you get to Sendai's lair if you just do all the obvious quests and clear all the areas in SOA and go through the watcher's tower.

 

How big was your party? That is the deciding factor. If you consistantly have a full or nearly full party through the whole game you are not going to get much more than 6mil exp per character, if that. If your party is 4 or less consistently, you probably will cap out at some point.

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

Elves get a bonus when using longswords? Tell me more.

The Toe

 

I find the fighter special abilties everyone keeps going on and on about in these discussions to be overrated IMO. I only found uses for them in the big battles, and it was in those very battles that I found my high level mage spells much more useful. Don't get me wrong. I think they are wonderful for the fighters and the rangers of the world, but somehow (and I am baffled I am one of the few who beleives this) I find Dragon's Breath and Commet to be more useful in the big battles than I did any of the fighter abilites (cept hardiness perhaps...and stoneskins and protective magics can make up for that).

 

Hi All,

Burrtoe, Elves get a +1 bonus to hit and damage when using long bows or longswords (not sure whether this covers, short bows and other swords such as two handed, katanas scimitars etc)

My party of six is just currently finishing the underdark, chp 5, still have most of the egg quest, kuo-toa prince and getting out to do and I my mc f/m just got 3million xp and his first two high level abilities, so I guess this agrees with the previous poster regarding xp. I have always had a six party from the first dungeon.

Since this is my first time though the game, I can't really comment on how useful the fighter abilities are compared to the mage ones. However, a couple of observations I have made so far:

I use magic alot, however, in the underdark I have met a lot of magic resistant foes and sometimes hitting them hard and fast with your weapon of choice seems to be the best way. My mc f/m is dual wielding belm and fury and in the Illithid lair improved haste worked wonders. Most of the nasties were diced and sliced within 1 round. I am guessing that whirlwind would do exactly the same. Hence, I have more double attacks before I need to rest.

If an area effect spell existed that reduced magic resistance - it would be easier, but trying to reduce resistance of 8 drow individually to allow spells to take effect is a pain, I found the best tactic was a sequencer with greater malison, web and slow, (these seemed to be more sucessful than the damage spells which invariably failed due to magic resistance), followed by a couple of improved hasted fighters with free action, ranged weapons and breach in support.

High level mages and liches can be a real pain. The best way I have found to kill these folks is to get my mages to strip their spell protections away first round and again throw in a couple of hasted fighters, two rounds later the nasty is dead. Only once so far did I give a lich time to throw out a timestop, luckily my characters survived the symbol spell onslaught and he died the next round.

I am guessing that the frequency of meeting magic resistant foes is going to increase as I progress thoughout the game, hence I am going to need both strong fighters and strong mages.

Cheers,

WittyNewt.




[This message has been edited by wittynewt (edited October 23, 2001).]