Who has more power: Irenicus or Elminster?

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But then again we can't forget his in-game quote "I can offer some guidence, but I will not interfere with your destiny" if killing Irenicus is your destiny in order to get your soul back where does that leave Elminster?

 

ok then. hehe, looks like I don't know too much about the forgotten realms then!

 

Elminster
definitly elminster because if you listen to Edwin's quote
"Elminster this, Elminster that, Give me 2000 years and a pointy hat and i could kick his arse!!!"
he clearly states Elminster is 2,000 years old so he is definitly in-tune with his magical abilities, second, Irenicus is only powerful because he locked you in a cage and took out the Essence of Bhaal(your "killier" side ) from within you

 

Why is Elminister a Harper(?)?

IF the Harpers are always trying to maintain the balance woulden't Elminister be a threat?

My best guess is that since he is so "godlike" he chooses to side with the harpey's (not a typing error) so he doesent need to worry about wiping out all the evil or all the good in Faerun (and probably the rest of the world). but he is also a cleric why wouldent he just join the temple of helm?

 

WHy would he be a cleric of helm if he is Mystra's Chosen? Wouldn't he be a cleric of Mystra?

 

yes he is a chosen of mystra, but he is neautral alingment and if he was a cleric of anything helm would be the most likley.
But I just remembered reading on some fan fiction that Helm killed Mystra in the time of troubles, but I dont know if that's right or not.

 

Screw all of this: Ctrl + Y 'em all and let Kelemvor sort 'em out.

 

My tomes tell a different story.

Zhanshar is probably the most powerful cleric. Unknown, unheard and probably never seen for centuries.

He has defeated Hombus, the dark elder god himself! Hombus, who used to keep Mystra as his private who*e. Mystra is tainted. By eons and time beyond time who have even heard of her.

Here are some powers of Hombus:

1. Hell Scream:
Not at all like the banshee wail. This scream instantly kills everything in cosmos, across time, across dimensional shifts and across all planes of existence. It simply snuffs out an entire alternate universe. Only way to save yourself is to pray that you are too inconsequential for Hombus to notice. So where does Hombus go after he destroys a cosmos? Simple, he's after all, a God. He merely creates a new one.

2. Bane Legion
Unstoppable army. Comprising of only 100 individuals. But what for individuals!! Half of them are some of the most powerful demi-liches that have ever lived across the thread of time. The other half are the souls of the greatest heros who have now become dark. If a single demi-lich can make the planes quake in terror, what terror the Bane Legion can unleash is simply unfathomable.

3. Concubine Dark
Hombus is the darkest elder God. He has made whores of Goddesses and Gods. As a God, he has no particular preferences. Male or Female. He uses a God/Goddess for unholy union, against their powers. The children born of this union are often guarding his person himself. And when his seed is released in the Gods/Goddesses, there is no stopping them from killing anyone whom they percieve a threat. Imagine, Dire Charm, with the ability to charm Gods/Goddesses. And you have the Concubine Dark.

...

There are many more powers known to Hombus, the dark elder God. No one in all relams of Faerun or Greyhawk or such singular dimensional planes of existence would survive Hombus.

Zhanshar, the Cleric.
Nothing is known about him. Nothing. No legends, no words, very few even know about him or his existence. But there is one piece of old tatterd parchment that asks a terrifying and deep question:

"If Hombus is unstoppable because he is the Elder Dark God, and if Zhanshar has made Hombus his pet, what powers can Zhanshar possess?"

My hunch is that Zhanshar is probably just some name. But note that with the exception of the tattered patchment carrying his name, there is no mention in the entire universe and among all planes of Zhanshar. But if it were true, you would bet he could kick anyone;s ass. Probably have Elminster or whoever it is, wet his pants. And he would'nt even do it himself. He would merely send in his pet's whore, the Mystra herself.

IN DEEPEST LORE...LORE~KEEPER

 

Lore keeper where exactly did you get this from?

if this cleric guy was in BG2 as an enemy and he had all these powers you are forgetting one other weapon which is superior to all of his.
can you guess what it is?
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Cntrl-y!

 

Elminster would win after a few casties. Elminster killed Edwin, so what's to stop him from killing Irenicus? (Remember by the time you finished the game with Edwin, he should be of higher level than Irenicus).
Also, Elminster, IIRC, has more power than anyone else in Faerun (mortal, at least) is allowed to have.
Btw, a bit off topic but Ctrl Y is not the greatest weapon there is, since there're some people immune to non-stat-draining effects.

 

ctrl+y, ctrl+r

the only people that I know of that are immune to non stat draining affects are people, that are not meant to die until a certain time or are key characters to the plot such as immoen at the very beggining Elhan and Linvail.
any boss character in the game can be killed with ctrl-y except for Irenicus in spellhold obviously, because if he did die there it would be game over very quickly.

 

Elminster is a cleric of Mystra. The first Elminster book "Making of a Mage" reveals how before he ever got to be a mage, he wandered around Faerún for some years as a cleric for Mystra. As after that I've not heard of him ever turning to the path of clerichood (sp?) again, then I find it hard to believe he'd become a cleric of Helm at any point. The level 30 cleric someone put in is also a bit suspicious, as he's certainly not as capable as a cleric as he is as a mage.

As for the harpers, I thought it was mentioned even in BG that Elminster himself is the founding father of Harpers. Elminster's primary purpose is to keep the balance, though as most that seek to threaten it are evil, it would seem as if he were on the good side. Harpers were made so as to make Elminster's job easier, granting him a network of resources and other people to take care of the smaller things. He's not with the harpers to be safe.

As said in the book "Spellfire", when you have much power, and too many enemies (probably because of that power), all you can do is either die, hide, or show these enemies that you're too powerful to be worth it. Elminster did the latter. Any above average mage could contact him, he isn't avoiding that overly much (he even has a steady place of living). Point is, all who've done that in the last 1500 years trying to defeat him have been killed, or handled in some other way at least as reliable. You can imagine that after 1500 years of that you don't see too many doing that any more. Afterall, any powerful mage needs to be many, many decades or even centuries old to have gathered that power, and mages rarely want to throw their lives away so easily.

Edit: Btw, I have one question for someone more familiar with the book-lore than I am. Is Hesperdan really Elminster, or not?

 

What about if some very powerful enchanter mage managed to bring Elminster to the darkside?

 

Elminster's gone through more tests than you can imagine. His personality is provenly such that he would never take the evil road.

Besides that, his mind has been attacked before a few times (before he got his power, and after that by creatures too many or powerful even for him). And each time Mystra personally protected him.

So I don't think you'll find any enchanters capable of that feat.

Really, just read Ed Greenwood's 4 Elminster books. They're boring, but they're also the basis of Elminster lore. You can find nearly everything from his birth, to how he came to be Mystra's champion, to how he reached his current power.

 

Yes and no. Helm was Ao's protector and the only god not forced to walk as a mortal. Helm however was given a different punishment than the other gods: to guard the celestial stairways (magical stairways that can only be seen by incredibly powerful mortals [i.e. Elminster] and celestial beings and the only way to return to the realm of the gods) from the gods till the Tablets of Fate were returned (stolen by Bane and Kelemvor). Mystra was the first god that managed to aquire enough power to make an attempt at a celestial stairway. Helm intercepted Mystra and killed her avatar yet her essence escaped.

 

Abom, it is Bane and Myrkul who steals the tabblets. Kelemvor is the human fighter in the story. However, isn't Mystra destroyed completely? Otherwise, why would Midnight be able to take over her role as a god, if the place wasn't vacant?

As for Elminster, I think either the Avatar series or the book Spellfire says that he is 500 years old and not 2000. Haven't read that much about him though.

As for Elminster being a cleric of Helm, well, Helm isn't the only neutral god around. I'm not that much into the lore of forgotten realms, but being goddess of magic would make Mystra neutral in my point of view.

 

This all sounds very intriguing. What would be the best way to find out about Forgotten Realms history and the like? Obviously I could buy some sourcebooks but there are tons and I don't want to spend a lot of money.

Are there novels set during the Time of Troubles, or a general 'history of the Forgotten Realms' type book?

 

Elminster is about 2000 years old, older still at the time of the book "Elminster in Hell". I can't throw in any direct quotes or references as I don't remember them though. Some sources have even claimed him to be closer to 3000 than 2000, but as far as I know 2000 is closer to the truth.

I can't say much about how Mystra died in the Time of Troubles. I do know however that the god that is Mystra did not die. This was one of the purposes of Elminster becoming Mystra's champion. Mystra foresaw her death during the Time of Troubles, so she planned ahead for this. Elminster's task was to hold Mystra's power during the Time of Troubles so it wouldn't be lost to the wrong hands. This is one of the reasons why Elminster was tested extensively, for few could have held the power he did without losing control. Although the Mystra that was before died, another, one of Elminsters friends and pupils, was to take her place and become the new Mystra. After the Time of Troubles Elminster gave his power to this new Mystra (I could dig up her name while she was still a mortal but that hardly makes a difference) who with it received all the knowledge and information, as well as power the previous Mystra had.

As Azuth stated in one of Elminster's memories in "Elminster in Hell", Mystra is merely the name for the place and power the god of magic resides in. The Mystra that was before the Time of Troubles was not the first Mystra, nor was the new Mystra to be the last.

Edit: About the books, you can check here at Sorcerer's place for buying them. Or if there's a good fantasy book store close to where you are, go there. For information on Elminster and Mystra specifically, you should try books by Ed Greenwood. He's about the closest thing to a creator of all lore concerning Elminster and Mystra. Making of a Mage, being the first Elminster book, is a good one to begin with because it has a fairly good amount of substance about the both of them, and is the most interesting of the books anyway. The ones coming after that tend to get rather boring. Elminster in Hell, being the last of Elminster books has a huge amount of information, but as a story it's extremely boring.

 

Elminster was born in 212. Time of troubles began 1358, assuming 25 years have passed since time of troubles elminster is close to 1200 years old, no where near 2000. Dont even try to say the Elminster was born before cormyr was founded, because thats just a blatant lie. Anyway if Elminster was over 2000 years old he would have seen the fall of Netheril, which he didnt.

 

True enough. Just checked some Forgotten Realms Chronology and Elminster really was born in 212. So he is around 1200 at the time. I was so very sure he was 2000, wonder where I got that from.