On Goths, real Goths, death and black

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To some people I am a goth, and to people that know more about it, I'm not. I dress in black and wear "weird makeup" and listen to music they think is gothic. I don't see myself as a goth, since I don't like to be put in partitions (?). I love to write poems and stories, I love to draw, take photos, create and see, beautiful things in life. I have become obsessed with beautiful things. That is why I dress in black. Pale skin and very dark, glittering eyes creates some kind of mysterious look which is very beautiful. To me.
But the music I listen to isn't that "gothic". I love metal, hardrock, punk and blues. Goth comes from the punk(rock?) and is very similar to "postpunk".
I don't think you can learn how to be a "goth". Goth is just a term that some people like to use when they put you in different partitions(?). Personally I hate when people do that, because every human being is special and we cannot be put into certain groups labeled with a common name just because we have some similarities.
Really. Noone can be a perfect goth since we all have different standars on what a True Goth is.

 

I already mentioned why I always wear black in the Random Babbling Post: terrible color coordination.

Besides, the blood from the gaping wounds of my victims will not be too obvious.

Unfortunately, though this world is an elitist one. The smart/strong rule the weak/dumb, and have a right and obligation to put them down and mock them. By, allah/jebus/buddha, in fact, it is the prerogative of the elite to mock the sheep. Benefits of superiority and all.

Why should morons be treated respectfully and their views pandered to? They should go down the toilet along with the rest of the sewage with no energy wasted in false kindness and tact.

Why should the intellectuals be obliged to aid and advise the lesser beings? We have our own lives to lead and if I only have the time to mock your stupidity but not correct or improve it, be grateful for my attention!

A side point here: for the religious, simply replace any term that has to do with intelligence with 'holiness' and any term that has to do with stupidity with 'sin'/'sinners'.

Like what Aikanaro said, every group thinks they're the best. After all, I'm going to burn in hell forever because I don't belong to a certain intellectually challenged group, right? So those who aren't in my 'group' are idiots/inferior/evidence of devolution back to the age of neanderthals according to the same principle.

@Eilonwy: Noble sentiments. However, 'partitioning' is a neccesary part of every society for the good of humanity. Humans naturally divide themselves into social groups and classify others accordingly.

Personally, I think that individuals below a certain IQ should not be allowed to breed but that's not the main point I'm addressing here.

Another sidenote: Makeup? Eyeshadow? Black lipstick? Self-mutilation and S&M? Whatever floats your boat, pal. It's not any worse than baggy, colorful trousers and 'gangsta' fixation. It's not worse than bright pink outfits with 'cute' accessories like soft toys. It's not worse than suspenders and pocket calculators [Yes, this look probably does not exist anymore. Just take it as an example, right?]
It's certainly better than nametags, bibles, wooden stakes, pitchforks, and foaming mouths though.

What is wrong with 'elitism'? It is the natural order.

Therefore, goths = bad is wrong. If anyone insists on that equation, remember that it also applies to any other group.

 

Shura, you are such an angry man.

I know you have incredible disdain for religion, but if you will insist on mocking them, at least try to hold to the truth.

No where in any religion is it a perogative to mock the 'sheep', or to stand on your own superority, in fact, it is stressed that you are no better than anyone else, that you are not superior, and if you were to mock anyone, that you are less than them.

In fact, it is a perogative of buddhism not to try and convert a single other person. And I know that no religion has the belief that you will go to 'hell' (allthough I believe myself that is a misperception) due to a lack of a particular theolgical faith, only due to other actions. This, along with many of the excuses you have cited, are the misguided belief concocted by men and women, and have no basis in the words of their prophets or the words in their books, and they belong to a minority of that religion at best.

It is not about false kindness or tact. It is about genuine kindness. It is about the realisation that everyone is as they are due to purpose. If you are to mock someone, then it is true that some good may come about. It may be shock enough for change for the better, or it may be a lesson to others not to follow your bad example. But the pivotal reason (for you persoanlly I think, I do not think you could empathise with any other), is that by doing such a thing you harm yourself.

This can be felt physically. I am not talking about guilt, but I am talking about the reaction our thoughts have upon us. Talk to a mystic, one who has focused their thoughts and is able to percieve their effects very subtley and they will tell you it is true, if you do not belive the sensations you can feel for yourself.

In your efforts to ask us to accept or to no longer generalise 'Goths', or at least try to understand them themselves instead of continuing a belief in a negative sterotype, you have done the same thing, to a larger extent I believe, with several religions, deliberately.

Yes. Each group may think they are the best, this is to be expected, as it is expected for many of these groups to mock others. But this does not make it right, nor does it excuse us when we do the same. The point I was trying to make is that such 'Goths' are not as intellectualy superior to as many as they would believe themselves. Nor are they superior in wisdom, acting with such blatant hypocrity, nor are they superior morally, doing the very things they critisze others for. this is bad in itself, but those actions, irregardless of whether they critisze them in others, are immoral in themselves as well.

No-one was asking any 'intellectuals' to lead and guide lesser beings. You have heighlighted what I said I think. Unwarrented disdain. Besides, I would not view assisting another as such a burden. Why do you think yourself so much more important? If you have the ability to help, and such help is asked, barring moral considerations, why should you not?

You would do best to let go of your rage, I do not understand how you can consistently hate others so. You say many things about those you believe are lacking in intelligence. It is a good thing that those more intelligent than you, those wiser than you, or those more ethical than you, do not all feel the same way.

Shura, I agree, this fixation on black clothes is no worse than any of the other examples you have cited. But it is no better than any of them either. You critisize those groups not like yourself. I am only critisizing the reasons and effects for these things, I know why it is done and I do not fault for it, I only say what it may be caused by, and what it can cause in return.

The same can apply to Self-Mutilation. If one may understand why this occurs, we can realise more damge is existant, and more is further caused, than the purely physical. If we cannot learn from our mistakes than all we can hope for is that someone else does, and be an example. If you would cite blind acceptance, I would suggest you ask yourself why you can accept this, and not any other.

Aikanaro, I don't want to get into a large debate here over quotes, but I shall do so if you have asked it.

Rebellion for it's own sake, as to congratulta each other on how hopeless they think everything is serves little purpose.

And again, more about non-conformity than any desire for improvement. I'm not saying that everyone should 'conform' I don't belive that. What I belive is that sheer rebellion for it's own sake is a waste of energy.

Hence the afraid or ignorant comparison.

I allready listed the signs she said were evident of one who did not like Goths, very derisive, yet phrased in a way to seem innocent, as is the majority of the article. As I said, passive-aggressive.

This is the main problem with the article. The author does bring up some evry good points, and many of the things she says may be true. But they are said in a belittling disdainful way, which belies her attitudes, as all our writing does. If you truly wish I shall give some examples of this, where she has recounted her past experiences in a very sarcastic and derogatory manner, but I do not think it is necessary, it can be reaslised in the tone of the writing for the majority of the work.

I do not know what you mean by 'in real life'. How is writing at home on paper any more real than writing via your keyboard? The physical copy of the work may be more real, and it is true, I would prefer that myself, but it says nothing of their willingness or aptitude for such work. The reality is the thoughts inside their heads, and their enactment of it, not whether it is written by pen or ASCII.

As to the quiz itself and rebellion, well, apart from; "You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV";
"You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know";
"You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you" and;
"You are afraid of mediocrity"
Which all show both rebellion and insinuate disdain, implying that others are the opposite, the other points, namely; "You don't just reject something because you don't understand it";
"You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like";
"You are not afraid of the unknown";
"You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes";
"You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers" and;
"You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own"
Seem to imply that there is some sort of discrepancy between the intellectual, moral, or rational abilities of those who are not Goths. Pleases, everyone has commented on this. I fail to believe you could not recognize the tone, and are therefore arguing with me for its own sake.


But before I continue, I think you have seriously misquoted me. The point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of people who are 'creative' for want of a better word, yet do not belong to the 'Goth' culture, nor do they seem to wallow in their own aesthetic satisfaction, a dangerous past-time.

This is immature. Hypocrity is immature, rebellion for it's own sake with little effort for improvement is immature, mocking others is immature, impressing yourself with your own sense of superiority is immature, I talked about this a lot before as well. It is immature to be so melodramatic, to place such importance on such notions yet not live by them, to be so enthralled by music, not for rest or for philosophical meaning, but the same way listless fans flock to Britney Spears or Eminem, or the New Age or Classical music for that matter either. Such fascination must also apply to movies, computers, philosophy, and politics as well, I do not deny this. It applies to anything upon one which is fascinated, obsessed ,dependant, you are using different words I do not know how to convey what it is I mean. It is a sign of immaturity that any of us are even here, I do not deny this. But that's the point. Goths do.

Using the domain name blood-dance is both a sign of immaturity, and one of a pre-occupation with such material, which is in itself a sign of immaturity. Once one recognizes immaturity, one can work upon it. What point does something hold once recognized if no move towards improvement is made?

As to your comment that "every other culture and religion in existence" thinks itself is the best. Possible true, but not quite, nevertheless, it does not excuse such behaviour on any of their parts, just because someone else does it, does not mean that it is ok. I am not trying to say that Gothic culture is any worse or wrong than anyone else's, only that it is no different, I am trying to explain them from a point of view distanced from the dogma it entails, as does any cultural or philosophical doctrine.


EDIT: This has become too critical I think, which was not what I was originally trying to do. I have no problem with Goths, I'm sure they are decent people. They are just smart kids who don't quite know how to act in accordance with their new perceptions and ideals I think, troubled perhaps, but I think no more so than many of the other groups of kids out there.

I'm not going to respond to this anymore because to continue defending my arguments will only continue to paint these kids in a worse light, which is not what I was trying to do. Merely make an observation upon this as any other. Most of the youth today as it's problems, and all are immature, what I was trying to say is that goths are the same as everyone else. I think I can agree with Aikanaro and Shura on live and let live, and I don't really think this is of vital importance.

[ January 07, 2004, 04:00: Message edited by: Manus ]

 

"No where in any religion is it a perogative to mock the 'sheep', or to stand on your own superority, in fact, it is stressed that you are no better than anyone else, that you are not superior, and if you were to mock anyone, that you are less than them.

In fact, it is a perogative of buddhism not to try and convert a single other person. And I know that no religion has the belief that you will go to 'hell' (allthough I believe myself that is a misperception) due to a lack of a particular theolgical faith, only due to other actions. This, along with many of the excuses you have cited, are the misguided belief concocted by men and women, and have no basis in the words of their prophets or the words in their books, and they belong to a minority of that religion at best." - Manus

So I guess that all those passages in the Book of Vile Dumbness [BOVD] about the superiority of 'righteousness' and the condemnation of those who do not conform to these concepts are figments of my imagination?

That some bad acid junkie known as St. Paul the Divine did not write some really hate-mongering crap in the last book of the BOVD? And that was only one example out of dozens. They must have been the minority, seeing as they only made up like 95% of the BOVD.

Well. Deary me.

I'm sure the Buddhists have been fighting with the Hindus for years because they're such kind and sweet-natured pacifists.

To place oneself over those inferior is the natural order of things. Should a leader be stupid or weak? Should we elect a retard as ruler of the world simply because he's 'such a nice and kind person'? [Don't get me started on Dubya.]

The stronger/smarter person definitely deserves to be more important than fools or weaklings. Think of the gene pool and the betterment of humanity.

Why should I help? I have better things to do with my life. Do I owe fools anything at all? Perhaps a quick death but I'm going to begrudge them even that.

I do not look down on people unless I'm spitting on them. And they've got to be pretty low down for me to do that. Hence, when I deem someone to be a moron, Lo and Behold, he/she usually is.

Of course, if you want to go around helping every beggar, do so by all means. Each to their own and all.

Know that not everyone subscribes to your concepts of 'kindness', Manus. To think so is 'immature', a term you seem to like using. To think that not subscribing to this concept is wrong is 'immature'. Get over yourself. There are people with an E in their alignment and nothing can remove us from our place on the top of the world order.

"It is a good thing that those more intelligent than you, those wiser than you, or those more ethical than you, do not all feel the same way." -Manus

Hold onto that thought by all means. If it helps you sleep better at night like a cuddly fuzzy teddy bear, I'll not be the icky mean baddy and snatch it away.

Cough*immature*Cough

Cough*selfdelusion*Cough

There will surely be idiots and miscreants everywhere, goths included. However, I do not see how the priest that rapes the altar boy and then preaches "teh righteousness of teh l0rd!!!11eleven!" to a flock of sheep is any less hypocritical than that guy in makeup who constructs bad poetry railing against society before buying a burger from MacDonalds.

If society can accept these priests, I'm sure they can accept writers of really bad verse.

You do not understand why I can hate so consistently? That just shows you're 'immature'.
I have transcended hate and rage. Lesser concepts for lesser beings.

Self-mutilation: If some guy wishes to cut himself on the forearm with a blade, well, it's HIS forearm. If some priest/pastor/dungheap wants to burn my books because they're 'satanic'. Well. Let's just say that his children will become orphans shortly before I sacrifice them to Bhaal.

The point is this. Goths are not doing any harm at all. Yes, they can be bloody annoying. But they're not hurting anyone with their sneers and whining beyond inciting an urge to backhand them across the face and to send them back to poetry 101. There are more harmful groups out there which are praised and lauded due to the fact that there will always be more stupid people than smart people. So if you can accept these groups, why not goths?

BTW: Bhaal will be pleased with the soul of that anti-abortionist campaigner I dedicated to him last week.

Do goths suck? Yes. But no more than any other group.

"Blood-dance" immature? Oh my! I'm sure "Sorcerer's Place" can't be very mature as well! What kind of name is "Dungeons and Dragons" anyway? How horrendous! Get over it.

Preoccupation with things related to the term "Blood-Dance" is not mature? Refer to above point.

"What point does something hold once recognized if no move towards improvement is made?" - Manus

Go back to the beginning of my post. No one owes anyone else anything beyond basic civility. So what if all the goths do is complain ineffectually and mope? It's their mouths. You can simply turn a deaf ear to them if you want to. Now, the fundamentalist screaming and railing at me with his assorted lynch mob behind him might just be that bit more difficult to ignore.

So you'll excuse me while I send them to Bhaal's embrace.

 

Friend, why is it that you are insulted by what I say?

I know that people abuse the names of their religions, I know that some indeed decry that all others are condemend to hell, that some lay fasle claim to religions of peace while waging war, that the words of the Masters are often misinterpreted. This does not mean that this is what those religions are.

I place no more fault at the hands of Goths than I do at any other, this is what I have been saying all along. I have agreed with you that other groups are just the same, this has been my point as well. In fact, in my previous post, I did state that it is just as nieve to be posting here as it is to be doing any of those things. I have said all this allready, I do not see where you base your argument.

I am aware that not everyone subscribes to my own morals, and I would not expect them too, or try to make them, or even think that they should. I have said this as well. That is intrinsic to my own beliefs.

Why do you think you are so persecuted? You speak of lynch mobs, you refute my statement that those you would deem your superiors do not ask for your death, you say that a leader is there to dominate, to be superior, and not to lead. I am sorry you hold these views, I only ask why it is that you feel such resentment being directed towards yourself?

Shura, I have never said I accept any of those groups any more than the Goths, so called, I shall again say that I deem them all, that I deem us all, in the same boat. Never have I said I tolerated one more than the other. I was simply making an observation on a cultural psyche, as I have done with other groups. I did in fact say much praise of them as well. I fail to see how the faults of one are relevant to the faults of another. They do not change, nor excuse, a thing.

And I have never said that self-mutilation hurt anyone else. You should have noticed that I said the true problem was one to the person themselves, and not necessarily physical.

I must ask you, why the constant refferal to murder? Have you murdered anyone? Have you given a human sacrifice? Have you commited any act to gain dark powers? I doubt it, so why say you have? I do not think that pretending to be a satanist makes you any more intelligent, or more deserving, than anyone else.

Shura, I do understand why you think, or feel if you wish, this way, and I do understand why you belive that you owe nothing to anyone else. The reason I say these things is not for them, you owe it to yourself. This applies to those we are discussing as well. I also know you shall not believe me when I say this, that you shall perhaps mock or deride my beliefs. I expect it, and I do not fault you for it.

When you have some more experience with life you may begin to understand what it is I am saying, and let go of your current responses, seeing them in a different light. Until then, I sincerely do wish you well in your endeavours, and I hope that you may find what it is you seek.

 

On the other hand, if YOU had more experience with life you would come around to MY way of thinking.

Sure, you can act all lofty and holier than thou. Hope you can hold onto that illusion cause it'll be a sad thing when it cracks. Hopefully, you'll be one of those slow learners who never have to suffer disillusionment.

And that whole thing about black clothing absorbing negativity and only wearing white clothing etc etc crap was hilarious in a flush-every-point-you-make-and-everything-you-say-down-the-toilet-as-far-as-validity-is-concerned way.

But enough of that.

My point is this. Goths are not any less excusable?

Whining incessantly in makeup is not any less excusable than forcing a woman to keep an unwanted and unborn child against her will? It is not any less excusable than depriving a homosexual of human rights simply because of his/her preference because "teh l0rd says0r so!!1"?

I'm glad you think that way. Luckily for the world, there will always be people like me aroud who will make sure such individuals suffer 'accidents', removing them from the collective gene pool and improving humanity in general. So. Try not to stand so close to where the train will arrive in the subway after making your views public. Some civic minded fellow might get an urge to better humanity all of a sudden, although train accidents do make a big mess.

Likewise, I wish you all the best in your endeavors as well. And don't forget to bring your fluffy teddy bear with you and look both ways before you cross the road.

 

On an altogether different note, for I fear the last one has lost its music, 8-bit Theatre settles the score.

 

I couldn't give two sh*** what I'm labelled as but as I've come to understand it, this is what I've been labelled as through the clothes I wear, music i Listen to, interests and hobbies, songs and poems I write, the way I act etc.

Greebo
Goth
Punk
Freak

Now of those four names, if I really did have to class myself, I think I would be a Goth. Now saying that I don't wear makeup But seriously, If i really did have to, and you must understand that I'm not particularly interested in what I am now other than myself, then I probably would label meyself as a Goth.

 

Shura, it's amazing how you use the "it's his own arm"-so-leave-him-alone argument and then compare "whining in make-up" to "forcing a woman to keep an unwanted and unborn child against her will". A child is not a part of the mother's body, it's a separate entity whereby the action involves at least one external subject, whereby it's not an internal choice. Just like, for example, she's not allowed to kill, let's say, her husband if she gets bored with him and doesn't want him anymore. Homosexuals are not deprived of human rights, they're not allowed to adopt children together with a person of same sex and are not allowed to marry with any such person. They're free to marry a person of opposite sex and have and adopt children with him as they please and the law allows. Just like anyone. I don't see how those examples relate to Goths or even stereotyping in general, but even if speaking about broadly defined discrimination, they still aren't really valid.

I also fail to see a necessary connection between holding views different to yours and being delusional, or between agreeing with you and having much experience in life

You, however, still make a good point about people who have nothing better to do than to throw labels around, and no life other than telling other people how to live theirs. Always ready to explain to you how and why they're better Fanatics aren't in majority, fortunately. I believe, though that no one in this thread gets close to that.

[ January 08, 2004, 20:52: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

I agree with Death Rabbit 100%.

Fully fledged Goths are freaky and to be honest, downright scary. Into depression, sadism and self mutilation. All of which is the domain of the morose and the sad.

They moan about being "misunderstood" yet make no effort to fit in, or get along with anyone else. They complain about not being accepted, yet are as bad as those they ***** at/about (if your not a Goth then you must be a sheep, just following the trends).

I follow fashion because I like fashionable clothes. I probably spend more money on that than anything else. Am I a sheep? No.

This whole "its their arm, let them do what they want" etc. is, frankly, the argument of the self obsessed etc, in my opinion.

They write poems about death, and how ****ty life is. They get depressed, don't make effort to enjoy of live life. They live in a cage of depression and sadism, which they themselves created. Do goths just love misery?

Illmater take their heart!

 

Surely if you're depressed you cannot enjoy life.

Concerning Self Mutilation (of which i know a fewpeople who cut themselves) well, perhaps they don't know of any other means to escape the pain and depression they are feeling.

As for loving misery, no they don't bloody well love misery. Writing poems about death and how crap life is, is a form of release. Its a way of expressing their current feelings in which they can't express it in another way, perhaps because others won't listen to them because they base their assumptions mainly on the clothes they wear, the music they listen to and the way they look.

And before any of you think of it, No I don't cut myself or do anything daft to myself.