Champions of Krynn Trilogy

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That bug is pretty immaterial if you're using the Gold Box Companion, or any other character editor. Just reset your XP to the correct value after training.

Regarding C/F/Ms:

I completely agree here; I don't know your preferred party composition, but I play with one knight and one kender cleric/thief. One more cleric character is enough to provide all the clerical spellcasting I need. Most important clerical spells are buffs you apply before combat; the knight can cast those perfectly well. The kender doesn't advance past level 12, but that's enough for a back-up Heal and plenty of low-level support.

I guess I'm not so much against C/F/Ms in principle, but you often see party recommendations with 4 or 5 clerical spellcasters and multiple C/F/Ms. That's just overkill. You're just never going to need that many clerical spells, and you're unneccessarily gimping your mage levels with that.

 

For the entire series(and the other Gold-box series as well), all you need is two characters capable of Casting Area-of-effect Damage Spells and one-two healers. MW is right, the rest is overkill. To put it simply, Party compostion really decides one thing...how often do you want to rest to replenish spells. Most battles are repeats with didn't monster icons.

 

Depends on what difficulty you are playing on. I know that on the hardest difficulty, there are many many battles which I would not want to try with only two mages. Especially in DQK and POD.

I think the default powergamer assumption on these boards is entire series at hardest difficulty.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure if you make heavy use of Haste and Enlarge, an all melee party with only a single mage could breeze through the Krynn series, even if they're all in wheelchairs by the end of it.

Is aging actually implemented in any of the gold box games? It might be in FRUA, but I have no idea about the rest.

 

Two Thirds Through CoK

I've been playing Champions of Krynn for a week or two.
Party:

Code:

Name      Race           Level Class
Chiboda   Silvanesti Elf 7     Cleric of Paladine
Kerga     Mountain Dwarf 7     Fighter
Barthames Human          6     Knight of the Rose
Koolios   Half-Elf       6/6   Cleric of Majere / White Robe Mage
Tillo     Qualinesti Elf 7     Red Mage
JoJo      Kender         9     Thief

Stats were generated by rerolling until "good" (i.e. primary stats for classes and constitution), not modified (5 or 6 rerolls is about all it seems to take). Character hp are taken at level up and not reloaded for maximum.

Started play on default of Veteran and soon discovered the game was waaaaaay too easy so bumped it to Champion : D

The party wiped on White Dragons first time, so I took a break, thought it out, reloaded and kicked White Dragon butt.
The party wiped on Green Dragons first time too. After a break to strategize, I reloaded and kicked Green Dragon butt.

Listed levels were attained after Neraka was completed. I try to explore completely, but I'm not deliberately grinding xp. Random encounters are plentiful. No love for more of the same.

Reflections:
Single class Mage is sweet! Multiclass Mage lags behind in getting highest level of spells. Difference is noticeable.
Multiclass Cleric/Mage is awesome! Cleric or mage single class by itself isn't as versatile. I always know the multiclass character will have something useful to do.

Cleric of Majere: +2 Turning Level rocks! Noticeable difference. Two clerics helps much with undead encounters.
Cleric of Paladine: meh. Protection from Evil [10' Radius] is not particularly noticeable. If I did it over again, I would choose Mishakal instead (three bonus spell! +1 die on all healing spells!).

I've read the multi-class debate. Up until now in the game, it has been a non-issue. Individually taken, single class is better because of access to higher level capabilities. Even if a character is multi-classed, he can still only take one action each time it is his turn. One or two multi-classes should be taken to increase the odds that a character with the right kind of ability to the current encounter wins initiative… but that's what balancing your party is all about. My Kender Rogue only just attained max level… so this may be a turning point for the multi-classed characters to start catching up to their single class comrades. Poor JoJo: CoK's xp table ends.

I've read the Knight of Crown/Sword/Rose debate. I've chosen to go as soon as possible into the more advanced orders of Sword and Rose rather than stay Crown because:
A: I already have a single class Dwarf Fighter…
B: Neapolitan is more interesting than Vanilla
No, seriously, look at Barthames. Barthames currently has 128946 xp.
That means that as a Knight of the Crown he would be… level 6.
Think about that: in CoK, Barthames could be a level 6 Knight of the Crown or he could be a level 6 Knight of the Rose… obviously, it is better to be a Knight of the Rose.

I do wonder how much my game will suffer because of the level caps in Champions of Krynn…

 

Single class mages are indeed good. Human or elf is a wash; elves get +1 dex, so they have higher initiative which is important for mages. Humans can be raised/resurrected, which may be relevant for low-hp single class mages.

I like cleric/mages too, but I wasn't impressed with Majere. Mishakal is excellent for that multi-class. I didn't have any problems with undead in COK, so Majere felt unnecessary. I wasn't impressed by him on DKK either, even though there's plenty of undead there.

Your Knight of the Rose should hopefully hit level 7 soon enough, but it will be a long slog to level 13. Crown/Sword is probably a pretty academic distinction. I never needed my knight's clerical spells, but you're also be far through DKK before you hit level 13 as Crown, if at all, when the extra attack would become available.

A dwarf fighter works well, and he'll get pretty useful when you play DQK and get a second dragon lance. Having two high-hp characters is a good idea.

How's you thief holding up? Single class thieves are very much a one trick pony, since the only thing they can do well is backstabbing. I had a cleric/thief who could pull double duty very well in the first two games, but there comes a point where a single class thief will outpace him when it comes to THAC0 - which is the important stat for backstabbing. At least, until the multiclass also reaches the THAC0 cap with his thief level. At that point, the bonus from Kiri-Jolith will become relevant again.

 

CoK

The kender held up well. I mostly used him to yell and range opponents, which might not have been the best use of his abilities, but with Knight, Fighter, and Cleric in the front row, he took up a back row slot. Enemies always ended up helpless in the back ranks of the enemy, so the kender would just pick them off while the front line worked

The pure cleric hardly cast any spells during combat, it was mostly mage work or multi-class cleric would beat him to the punch. And towards the end, it became clear his combat ability wasn't anything close to the fighter types. So for the final third of CoK, Chiboda's usefulness pretty much devolved to casting detect magic on treasure and healing the party between battles

Would I multi-class the kender if I did it again? Probably not. Access to advanced armor and weaponry just wasn't needed. The cleric roles are covered already so if I don't like their gods I should just change those

For the first two thirds of CoK the difference of having Majere bonus levels was extreme. No turnings vs. turning everything was common. During the last third of CoK, Chiboda's turn ability appeared to catch up to Koolios and it didn't matter.

Almost every battle was about which spells the mages would cast: Stinking Cloud, Fireball, maybe Ice Storm. Everything else was rote. Probably the trickiest battle I fought was against the Blue Dragons. 75 damage was enough take out anyone in my back line and there was no Resist Electricity spell! The other battles (including the end fight) were all manageable once I prepared properly for them.

Well, I suppose I'll be turning my attention to DKK soon. I haven't decided if I'll keep my current party or make changes. I'll look over the DKK rules first.

 

All this talk of these games has inspired me to order it and try it out. I like the Dragonlance series a lot and had no idea there were games for it. There are a few things that confuse me though. What races have what level limits? I would like to play the same party the whole way through and not have it be gimped by low level characters. Also, what is the difference between the white mage and red mage?

 

Download ALL the manuals at replacementdocs.com for each game. They are very handy when you have a decision to make while in combat.

Races - Basically only Humans don't have level limits. All the other races have limitations to a degree. The manual shows it all.

Mages - They get different spell selections.

So in order to play thru the entire series with the same party, Multi and Dual class away. Single classed characters can lag. Though I have beaten the games with 2 Knights, 1 Ranger, Kender C/T, Red Mage and White Mage/Cleric. Also with many variants of similar nature. I Like Knights.

 

One problem that I have with using the same party all the way through is that the available classes change. Paladin is introduced in Death Knights of Krynn, so if you want one in the party you have to add it after completing Champions of Krynn.

 

I rarely browse "The Playground" but I just noticed this thread. I have the Apple II version of Champions of Krynn and the sequel, but the final installment was never ported.

Several people have mentioned "trying either the PC or the Amiga" version. I assume they are talking "abandonware", if not, have the games been released as freeware? Can I download the PC version so I can play again? My Apple IIGS is at my mother's house in storage with a bunch of my old toys she's keeping "for her grandchildren" (which doesn't look likely anytime soon) since I couldn't bring myself to get rid of it when it still worked as it has sentimental value as my first computer.

 

Slick, The Goldbox games are pretty much abandonware for now; but you might find one of the compilations on ebay or Amazon marketplace. I bought the Wizworks compilation, back in the day. I think the Krynn series is harder to find nowadays than the Forgotten Realms ones.

I quit playing for almost a year, in the underwater section of DQK. I upgrades my PC in the meantime, and played a bunch of more recent games, but now I picked it up again.

I also reorganized my party for the final time:

Human Knight
Dwarf Fighter
Elf Fighter/Red Mage/Thief
Kender Cleric of Kiri-Jolith/Thief
Elf Cleric of Mishakal/White Mage
Human Red Mage

Here's some more observations:

Single class mages really come into their own in DQK. My C/M is level 18/18, the F/M/T is 14/17/18, while the single class is 24. The level gap is a big deal when Delayed Blast Fireballs become your main form of damage. I started my play-through with a cleric of Majere, and replaced him with a paladin late in DKK, but neither character was entirely satisfying. In contrast, the single-class mage is fantastic.

I would no longer discount a single class cleric of Mishakal out of hand. Clerics don't have a lot of options for offensive spells, but Blade Barrier is absolutely solid. Having more of those earlier would be great. Longer durations on your clerical buffs are also welcome.

In light of this, I still consider F/M/Cs sub par, or at least a heavy focus on them. Having a triple-class backup caster for those spells where a high level doesn't matter much can make sense in the overall party composition. It pretty much has to be a red mage/neutral cleric because both white mages and good clerics level noticeably slower.

Actually, about red and white mages in general: You should have at least one of each. If you play with only one mage, it should be a red one since you'll want to have Haste available; and the faster leveling is a distinct advantage. White mages get the better high level spells: Hold Monster, Globe of Invulnerability, Mass Charm, etc. However, there's a caveat: whether through a bug or by design, it's possible to buy mage scrolls in Kristophan (in DQK) that let mages learn spells from opposite schools. But since the scrolls are random, that's a tedious and expensive process. Still, if you have more than two mages, this makes red ones preferable.

There are three main defensive spells for your mages you should use for tough fights: Mirror Image, Fire Shield (Cold) and Globe of Invulnerability. The latter is also great for Fighter/Mages, since it protects you from enemy mages' fire shields in melee.

Regarding kenders: There will come a point when a single class thief would have the better THAC0 for a while (past level 21), until the cleric/thief reaches level 12/21. At that point, he comes out ahead again, thanks to the bonus from Kiri-Jolith. For pure hit points, however, a single class thief will definitely outpace him. I also had to realize that kender can only cast spells up to level 5 in DQK, due to their low wisdom. No heal and no blade barrier, alas. I still think they're the better choice, especially for the first two games. They can wear (and backstab in) plate mail, while the armor choices for pure thieves are dismal before you reach Taladas in DQK.

I don't use backstabs very often anymore, but I haven't started fighting Thenols and Enchanted Draconians yet. I still appreciate having the option.

To some extent, you can use items to give weaker characters like a kender some more punch. A thief can use mage scrolls to cast spells. There's also stuff like the Eyes of Petrification (not the cursed ones!): my kender just killed two dragons back to back with those. Before that, he made liberal use of the necklaces of missiles you find in the games.

It definitely is a good idea not to advance your knight from Sword to Rose too soon. Hit level 18 as knight of the sword, and then wait (a looong time) until you have enough XP to stay level 18 when you advance to knight of the rose.

 

I had the AD&D 9-Game Collectors edition CD for probably close to 20 years now. I decided to load it back up as I got tired of playing first person MMO's where I can only play one class at a time. I've never completed Pools of Darkness due to a bug in my original version. I loaded it up and started playing a bit. I then got curious about the Krynn series, so I started playing this instead. I guess I like levelling up lower level guys compared to Pools of Darkness where I'm pretty much maxed out.

My personal style of play involves having a lot of spellcasters. In the Azure Bonds game (the first of these I've played), 4 magic-users in total including single and multiclassed. I had to switch my party makeup for Silver Blades due to level caps on demi-humans. With the Krynn series and the higher or unlimited level caps, I'm happy to be able to multiclass all the way. Also, the lack of dual-classing is forcing me to multiclass.

I'm just starting out, so I'm going to go with this party makeup:

Human Knight
2x QElf Cleric/Fighter/Mage
2x QElf Fighter/Mage
Kender Cleric/Thief

I'll have 2 mages of each colour and at least one cleric of neutrality and at least one of good. I'm in my exploratory phase where I often restart the game a few times with different parties. The good and neutral aligned spellcasters are quite different, so I want to be able to compare side by side how each plays.

Going through Azure Bonds/Silver Blades, I like having multiple characters being able to do an area effect attack. I like being able to nuke a group of enemy casters, so they cannot cast spells. If I'm not going up against enemy spell casters, I just hack and slash as most of my characters are fighters.

-------------- Edit: Finished the Game --------

I completed the adventure with the above party. I did not have too much difficulty through most of the adventure. The biggest challenge was the dragon fights. In these battles, the kender was indeed very valuable. I used her to run away from the main group and yell. This drew dragon attacks to her and away from my mages. For all of the other battles, the yell did not seem quite useful.

Having 4 characters who can cast area effect spells, I was able to take care of enemy spellcasters with ease. I would at least be able to get one fireball off to damage the enemy casters. It did take some time before I got my first fireball as all of my mages were double or triple classed. As each mage eventually got 3rd level spells, my ability to deal with enemy casters improved significantly. Prior to getting fireball, I relied on hold person and silence and just attacking them which worked fairly well early on.

Two of my 3 clerics were neutral, so I had access to dispel magic quite early. This came in very handy as I encountered enemy clerics quite early who can cast hold person. I only used my clerics to cast dispel magic. My white mages used the slots for fireball or lightning bolt. Poison was a concern as I did not have neutralise poison until late. I had to rely on the scrolls a few times. Later, I did not encounter much poison attacks at all. Also, with 3 clerics, I did not have much difficulty with undead. Usually, one or 2 would turn them. My only good cleric was of Mishakal. The extra healing was noticeably helpful. The other cleric's special abilities were not that useful.

I'm going to play through again, but with the following slightly different party.

Human Knight
SElf Cleric of Kiri-Jolith/Ranger
QElf Fighter/Red Mage
QElf Fighter/White Mage
QElf Cleric of Kiri-Jolith/Fighter/White Mage
QElf Fighter/Red Mage/Thief

I decided to do without the Kender because I felt she was useless for the most part. She rarely hit anything, so even backstabbing wasn't very effective. Her only contribution was casting dispel magic a few times and dragon fights. I think without the yell, dragon fights would be more challenging. With so few of them, I decided to do without a kender.

For the thief role, I decided to go with the fighter/red mage/thief. He would hit better than the cleric/thief, use better weapons and likely be able to backstab better. He can also cast fireball.

I decided to go with only one cleric/fighter/mage. I added a cleric/ranger for a better front line fighter. I decided to make them both clerics of Kiri-Jolith for the +1 to hit. This seems to be the best ability that remains useful beyond the lower levels. With both clerics being good aligned, I will get dispel magic much later. This would present a bigger challenge against enemies that can paralyse early on.

I plan to take this party through all 3 games of the series, so I am thinking long term. All fighters will reach level 14 and get 2 attacks per round. All other classes will not have a level cap. I will eventually have 3 character who can cast cleric spells and 4 that can cast high level wizard spells.

 

Leveling up multi-classed characters results in round off errors that reduce the hit points you get. The game does not remember these fractions, so any fractions less than 1 are rounded down.

With two classes, the error usually isn't that bad. If you try to get max hit points out of multiclassed characters of 2 classes, you should be able to with enough retries and your constitution bonus is an even number. Let's assume you have 18 Con. Your Con bonus to hit points will be either +2 or +4. Your max hit point roll will also always be even (4, 6, 8 or 10). When you level up, the game divides your HP roll by 2 and round down. Then adds it to your Con bonus to HP divided by 2 rounded down. If these numbers are even, you don't get rounded off at all.

With three classes, you will almost always get rounded down somehow. In your example, your cleric will have a max HP roll of 8. Your Con bonus to HP will be +2. The game takes 8 divided by 3 which is 2 rounded down. Then it adds it to your Con bonus to HP divided by 3 rounded down which will be 0. Your max HP gained by leveling up a cleric will be 2 HP.

The solution is to wait for 2 classes to gain levels before leveling up. If you level up as a fighter and a cleric at the same time, you will get better results. For these two classes, the numbers actually work out exactly to multiples of 3. Your HP roll would be 10+8=18. Divide by 3 and you get exactly 6. Then your Con bonus to HP is 4+2=6. Divide by 3 and you get exactly 2. Your max HP would be 8.

If you were to level up your fighter and mage, the numbers don't work out quite as well. You get (10+4)/3 rounded down to 3 for HP rolls. Then your Con bonus is (4+2)/3=2. Add it together and you get 5. You lose 2/3 of a hit point due to rounding. Likewise, leveling up both cleric and mage will make you lose 1/3 of a hip point due to rounding your Con bonus to HP.

The fighter/mage/thief has the same issues as well. This multiclass has slightly more round off errors that results in reduced hit points due to rounding. You should also try to level up 2 levels at a time with this character to minimise the round off of hit points.

It wouldn't be so bad if the game added the HP and Con bonus before dividing by 3 and rounding. As Champions of Krynn doesn't do this, you have to resort to leveling up two classes at a time for triple classed characters. I'm not sure if other Gold Box games do the same or not. I have a fighter/m-u/thief in Azure bonds, but I don't recall such severe round off errors, or I just don't remember. I'll have to give it a try as I plan to rebuild my party in preparation for Pools of Darkness.

The numbers for triple class character hit points for leveling are listed below. I assume max HP roll and 18 Con. I including leveling in one, two and all 3 classes.

Class / Max HP roll / Con bonus / No rounding / CoK rounding / HP loss due to rounding

Fighter / 10 / +4 / 4.67 / 4
Cleric / 8 / +2 / 3.33 / 2
Thief / 6 / +2 / 2.67 / 2
Mage / 4 / +2 / 2.00 / 1
Fighter+Cleric / 18 / +6 / 8.00 / 8
Fighter+Thief / 16 / +6 / 7.33 / 7
Fighter+Mage / 14 / +6 / 6.67 / 6
Cleric+Mage / 12 / +4 / 5.33 / 5
Thief+Mage / 10 / +4 / 4.67 / 4
Cleric+Fighter+Mage / 22 / +8 / 10.00 / 9
Fighter+Mage+Thief / 20 / +8 / 9.33 / 8

As you can see, leveling up does result in losing hit points while rounding. However, you lessen the hit point loss somewhat by leveling up 2 classes at a time. If you level up in fighter and cleric separately, you lose 0.67 HP for the fighter plus 1.33 HP for a cleric for a total of 2 HP. If you level up both the cleric and fighter at the same time, you don't lose any. This assumes you roll max hit points.

I use this info plus the XP required to level each class to plan out when I level my character. Sometimes, you have to level only one class, to max out your hit points in the long run. Sometimes, you may want to level up your spellcaster as soon as it gets the next level of spells. This means you have to plan things out.

I'm still playing Champions of Krynn. When I move onto the next game in the series, I'll see if the round off is the same.

 

I just started playing it a few months ago for the first time. Thought I'd share what I found. This thread came up on my Google search for info on Champions of Krynn.

 

It's actually perfectly fine to necro this particular thread, imo, because the game being discussed is so old.
This is probably the best place to post helpful information on this old game.

I've noticed the same problem with multi-classing, but you explained it best I think.

 

I'm currently using the Goldbox Companion. It's a cool utility. It also allows you to level with max hit points and doesn't suffer from the round off error with triple class characters. You can also edit the hit points yourself. The GBC isn't perfect. I noticed that levelling my Cleric/Fighter/Mage in DKK is causing the THAC0 to not advance when levelling in fighter. I had to level the normal way and then just edit the hit points afterwards.

 

Nice. I never used the Goldbox Companion (it probably beats trying to figure out the files in a hex editor). IMO, the game is playable on the hardest difficulty without editing, but knowing that everything is by the book optimal gives ease of mind. I have a party running through Dark Queen of Krynn that I've been meaning to finish off for years... when I find the time.

Knight of the Rose
Cleric of Majere / Ranger
Cleric of Kiri-Jolith / Fighter / White Mage
Fighter / Red Mage
Cleric of Mishakal / White Mage
Thief

I maybe should've made a Cleric / Thief instead, but I think it's fun to run around with a level 31 character in the party

It's really a good idea that you are making sure your fighters get their THACO, a lot of encounters can be settled without spending too much magic if you have enough strong fighters in the group and certain areas don't let you rest too often or too easily. With four spell casters, you can really lay down the AoE . I wouldn't mind having another spell caster in my party. A lot of the time, it feels like I'm just escorting my kender around like adventuring parents who refuse to leave their child at home . The hp and THACO isn't too bad at 31 levels, but I feel the missing magic. I'd be interested to know how your triple-classed thief is working out (I had strongly considered forgoing the kender at one point). There doesn't seem to be much reason to have a kender in the party except for the occasional magic Hoopak and token racial diversity. I imagine your Fighter / Mage / Thief is crushing it. Are there any obstacles your Thief has trouble disabling?

On Dragons: taunt really not necessary at all. Land a good Hold Monster and it's lights out. Your party walk around and be like, "What dragons?"
On Dispel Magic: didn't use it much, just killed paralyzing creatures with AoE, turning, and guarding (and high AC, of course).

 

I did try different characters when first playing CoK. I had a Kender Cleric/Thief. She used a Hoopak. I really didn't like it. First of all, she can't hit worth crap. With only 16 Str, her THAC0 was just higher than any of my fighters. Even when in position to backstab, she wouldn't hit very often. Her ranged attacks also sucked. Even when she hit, she did so little damage that it didn't feel like it made much difference. The only real advantage was I didn't have to change weapons when wanting to do a ranged attack.

I'm not that high on a single classed thief either. Fewer weapons and lack of armour and shield makes it more squishy. I'd be interested in knowing how a single classed thief performs for you.

I'd rather go with at least a fighter/thief. You get more weapons, more attacks, higher strength and better armour and shields. Just don't wear plate as you cannot back stab in plate.

Against most non-spellcasting enemy groups, I can often just go melee and finish them off rather easily. I only use my magic against enemies with magic or natural special abilities like paralyse, petrification or AoE. Even against some spellcasters, I can melee them if I there aren't that many and I can get my fighters through to hit them an disrupt their spells.

My style of play with these Goldbox games involve a lot of arcane casters. I find it very important against enemy casters. With 4 in my party, most likely one will always go before the enemy casters. I can lay down a fireball and disrupt all enemy spells that round.

THAC0 in AD&D 1E is capped after a certain level. I think after level 21, a thief's THAC0 no longer improves.

I actually don't like the thief very much at all. I only have one just for completeness. Also, I like having someone to disarm traps just in case. These games seem to always have that one thing that needs a thief. If I know that I don't need one at all, I wouldn't even have one in my party. I also like things to be symmetrical. I have a red and white double class mage. I also have a red and white triple class mage. So far, any thief related tasks, my fighter/mage/thief managed just fine. He may be a bit behind in back stabbing damage, but the fighter class gives him better attack bonus and more attacks at higher levels that more than makes up for 1x extra back stabbing damage. Back stabbing doesn't happen that often. It doesn't even happen every battle. All of the other times when I don't get into position to backstab, the f/m/t attacks as a fighter and gets multiple attacks at higher levels.

When I used a kender, I found that taunting dragons is her best ability. Without the kender, I still do quite well. Sometimes, dragons breath on me though, but with fighter hit points, they are able to survive fairly well. With spells, I just stinking cloud them in CoK if I feel I cannot finish them off quickly enough, even with AoE spells.

I'm not so into racial diversity. I don't have a dwarf. In Curse of the Azure Bonds, I don't have a dwarf, gnome or halfling. I find Humans and Elves are the only races I like in these Goldbox games. Elves get a +1 attack with longswords which are pretty much the best weapon by far in AD&D 1E. My knight currently uses a 2-handed sword because it is +3. I don't bother with flails as I don't have a non-elf, non-fighter cleric. The hoopak's only advantage is that it is convenient to switch between melee and ranged which isn't enough for me. The one criticism of these old versions of D&D is that there are things that are obviously the best and everything else pretty much second rate.

I was never very familiar with the world of Krynn. I was most familiar with Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. I also know Mystara quite well and know a bit of Dark Sun. It wasn't until recently that I played CoK. I found I loved the rules. Demi-humans have much higher or no level limits and more variety of multiclassing available. I wished I started playing the Krynn games a lot sooner. Now, I'm making up for lost time.