Leveling system

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I'd like to hear your opinions about the leveling system in Skyrim.

Here are my personal pet peeves with it, plus proposed solutions using the almighty Community Uncapper.

1) Single class characters are greatly limited in what level they can achieve. Thus, they can only hope to achieve so many total points in Health, Magicka and Stamina. Perks are fine though, since there aren't so many trees to put them in.

2) Hybrid characters achieve greater levels with ease, removing the stat point issue. However, in order to receive enough perk points to spread around, they're pretty much forced to level ALL skills - leading to all sorts of metagaming with available training points, trying to AVOID leveling in order to not miss training opportunities etc.

3) You need high character level to get a decent amount of stat points, yet there is an incentive to stay at lower levels due to the enemy level scaling.

4) There's an inherent risk in dabbling too much in utility skills (Speech, Lockpicking, Pickpocket) in that you'll meet tougher opponents without having the necessary combat skills to tackle them.

5) Reaching 100 in any skill is a two-edged sword - while you naturally would like to get there ASAP, you lose a big incentive for using that skill once you get there, since it no longer helps your character's progression.

So, how about solving the issues above like this?
- Reduce the amount of character exp awarded for low skill levels, while increase them for higher ones. This removes the incentive to train off-skills, unless you can expect to get them all the way to 90+. (Think skill books and such.) Even then, you'll better be sure to train the ones you actually use to max first, since they no longer stop contributing to your level shortly thereafter.
- Reduce the amount of character exp awarded by utility skills. IMHO tradeskills belong here as well, considering how hard it is to gather enough money to pay for training using the said tradeskills.
- Reduce both the leveling speed and character level contribution of skills past the 100 mark. That way you never lose the sense of advancement, while not breaking the balance (neither in terms of gameplay nor leveling) unless you REALLY put your back into it.

I THINK (and here's where I need input from you guys) this solves all of the points above in a minimally intrusive way?

Please note that due to the exp reductions in early game (both early skill levels and the utility skills that traditionally level 'too fast' compared to everything else), the actual character level will lag behind a game with standard rules at first. Thus, I'd also increase the actual contribution of the early levels, both in terms of perks and stat points per level, until level 10 or so. This way, your standard lvl 50 singleclass dude would equal lvl 60 in normal rules, while the hybrid guy would need serious investment all across the used skills to reach the corresponding spot of the old lvl81 cap - but WITHOUT the off-skills.

EDIT: I kind of implied it but better to put in print: I find the game's own "legendary skills" system of going past the level cap extremely unintuitive, convoluted AND immersion-breaking, so that's a definitive no-no.

 

Personally, I've found Skyrim's levelling system such a marked improvement on Oblivion's immersion-destroying mess that I've been willing to give its foibles some leeway. Certainly, I feel its the best Elder Scrolls system for anyone who "just wants to play the game" since Daggerfall. I agree with you about the exaggerated influence of trade & utility skills, though. Although some would argue that trying to navigate the game with a combat novice is part of the roleplaying experience, I feel that new players can too easily get trapped by this. The non-combat skills can level so quickly almost without you noticing that a newbie player could end up getting stuck or overly frustrated, by simply not knowing which quests to avoid. Since questing should be rewarding, not punishing, that's clearly the biggest problem.

If you're better off making cash early on by chopping infinite amounts of firewood than bandit hunting, MacGuffin gathering and problem solving, because supposedly beneficial skill boosts are gimping your character, something's wrong with the game design. If it's because of the game setting up a world, Gothic-style, where you have to graft before you become powerful enough to quest, that's a different matter; it's a design choice. Skill books present a similar problem; they're supposed to be a reward, but build-conscious players are compelled to either install a mod to be able to pick them up without reading them, or dance round them until skill level 90. To some extent, though, you could argue that both these woes and the need to maximise the usefulness of training slots, are the product of a powergaming approach versus a roleplaying one, and thus (to a degree) player-inflicted.

Game designers must anticipate how the player interacts with the character development systems they are given, but they're are so many ways of doing this (and they link in with everything) that making them all fun, intuitive and immersive is nigh-on impossible. How Bethesda improve on what they've got whilst keeping the TES spirit of skill use driving levelling is always going to be a problem, because it leads too so many variables to balance, and a hard-coded incentive to grind skills.

But they could just slow down the rate the bloody lockpicking levels up, for a start.

 

Well, there certainly is a difference in being able to squeeze out an extra level of two by training an off-skill, or that being the ONLY way to get the last two perk points you need for a broad-spectrum hybrid build.

A pragmatic powergamer (such as myself) can often live with unoptimized stuff, just as long as you can get the benefit by other means. Especially so, if the 'other means' include stuff that is already in your character's build AND you can skip a literal metric ton of metagaming to achieve it.

I kinda liked the Diablo 2 system, in which you could get excellent builds already in the level 70 to 80 range, i.e. not requiring excessive level grinding, even if the actual level cap was 99. Beautiful balance between keeping the levels rolling and the benefits of reaching levelcap being marginal at best.

 

Yes, you can tweak both the leveling speed of the skills themselves and their contribution to your character's level. Both globally and by skill level(s).

Incidentally, I fixed Pickpocket in my game by nerfing its leveling speed by 80%, while Destruction levels doubly fast. Those are, IMHO, the worst offenders in either direction.

 

I don't think it ever takes me more than a few hours to get pickpocketing to 100 if I focus on it. Then suddenly mobs I used to slay easily overwhelm me before I can draw my weapon

 

I've never really felt the need to grind skills in Skyrim (unlike Oblivion or Morrowind), so it's usually the faster levelling ones that bug me. Lockpicking, Pickpocketing, Speech & Enchant (it's too powerful!), specifically. Incidentally, are there any straightforward (i.e. non-SKSE, don't fiddle with perks) mods that alter skill levelling speeds, or is there an easy way of doing this in the CK?

I think this says it best:

 

I thought of SkyTweak first but it also utilizes SKSE.

However, if you just generally want to nerf the leveling speed, you only need to adjust one variable: fSkillUseCurve has the default value of 1.95, making all leveling equations (nearly) quadratic. Just hike it up to 3 and you're looking at extremely sharp increases in exp required to level.

Edit: Better explanation here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Leveling

 

... The Draughr are TRAINING.

I still love that one. Should've thought of posting that one too

 

But if I've read that correctly, that effects global skill use; I was thinking more of slowing specific skills. Is that something achievable in the CK? I believe so, because I think there are non-SKSE mods that can do this... I just can't think of any atm.

 

Never tried CK myself, but I'd assume the variables SkillImproveMult and SkillImproveOffset are defined separately for each skill - the values vary by skill at least. Adjusting them (upwards in your case) should make changes for that skill only.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to avoid SKSE?

 

Because of how badly I found OBSE broke Oblivion, basically. So far, none of my 150+ installed mods use SKSE, and Skyrim never crashes (well, except when I'm holding ALT to sprint and attempt to go to the menu screen at the same time... Oh, Windows! ). So if I can avoid it, I will. It's only really been Apollodown's Civil War Overhaul that's even slightly tempted me to go back on this, so far. While I appreciate how much difference things like SkyUI & the MCM can make, I was never that frustrated by the original interface to begin with. Better Dialogue/Message Controls handle any annoyances I may have had nicely. Also, there's no such thing as a "Clean Save" anymore in Skyrim, so the fewer scripts you have running, the better.

 

Now that the biggest woe of them all, armor scaling, can be taken care of in an elegant way (by using the Improved Armor Formula mod), I'm fairly confident that I'll be able to put out a setup that allows for smooth sailing for everyone between the single skill tree one-trick-pony and the full "I have all these 18 skills maxed" hybrid without any major balancing issues. INCLUDING the possibility of scaling skills way, way past the normal 100 skill cap.

Damn you Bethesda, for making us do the balancing of the game YOU created!

 

1) Skyrim is not a single class game. That much should be apparent considering how you can choose to max everything if you so wished. Your perk choice reflects your actual playstyle.
2) That's the powergamer's perspective. The game is easy enough even at maxed difficulty, you don't actually have to go out of your way to max out your character just to finish it, though there are some scaling issues.
In BG2 I can prebuff for 5 mins so my party gets +100 to hit and damage, but why would I do that if I can beat the last fight with just 30 seconds worth of prebuffing?
3) Powergamer's perspective. Also, "pros and cons - deal with it" and "hah, you thought it would be that easy?!" - developers
4) See the Magpie's post. Pretty much sums it up - did you really expect to have an easy time questing when you spent the majority of your time training to be an NPC?
5) Powergamer's perspective.

Saying the game is unbalanced is one way to put it. But considering that they've been using a similar system for like 5 games now, it's just as likely the devs never bothered to fix it and left the mechanics as is just to screw with the powergamers.
This thread is proof that if it's the latter, it worked.
Still, since most of the people playing this game are probably powergaming anyway (or trying out different challenges for the hell of it, like actually playing as a single class character) then a "powergamer's mode" with the appropriate scaling/rules would sure be nice.

 

I respectfully disagree - scaling has nothing to do with being a powergamer or a roleplayer. A decent scaling system easily allows for both playstyles, and difficulty sliders can be relegated to what they're supposed to do - alter the perceived difficulty of the game. RATHER than having to use them to curb the overpoweredness of tradeskills, breaking other parts of the game, like for example Destruction.

I honestly tried roleplaying my first character, ie. a melee tank with tradeskills. Little did I know (much less expect) that doing that would throw the game balance out of the window. My current character taught me the lesson that tradeskills ALSO break the game's economy, loot and leveling systems thanks to infinite leveling via Legendary skills. And that's without even trying to push it.

So rather than pointing out that I'm a powergamer and I (somehow) SHOULD suffer for it, you could try realizing these scaling issues hurt you as well, when there could be a better solution available.

 

I don't think this game was meant for roleplayers either. It's really more of an action game, or at the very least a hack and slash RPG. Like Diablo, except in first person 3D.
Bottomline is that, unlike true RPGs like the Infinity Engine games which require like 80% strategy/planning/finesse/etc, Skyrim is simply about builds and not all of those builds are supposed to work. And I'm not just talking about the final result.
I specifically had skills like Destruction in mind when I mentioned that not everything scaled well.

I'm not saying you have to (somehow) suffer for it, I'm was just stating my own opinion. Sorry if the wording in my post made it seem like I meant "you" as referring specifically to you, Sir Rechet, but its really more of an arbitrary "you" as in anyone reading my post.
I just don't believe in tampering with the game files that way. Anyway it's none of my business what other people do and I'm definitely not trying to discourage you from modding the game (I'd probably even download it, seems hypocritical but we all have our quirks) but for the sake of clarification that fact was what dictated the tone of my previous post. I know if I was one of the devs behind the game, I'd "balance" it generally the same way.

Anyway scaling issues did hurt my characters at first, then I just figured out ways to get around them.

 

For those interested, here's how I decided to solve it.

First of all, I divided the skills into four main categories: Obligatory, augmenting, optional and low-impact.

Obligatory skills are the ones that you really can't do without, at least not without severely gimping yourself. There are three of these: defense, offense (close range) and offense (long range). However, the trick here is that there's always at least two skills that fulfill the requirement of each AND the choice is going to exclude the other options. For example, there's very little point in investing heavily in both Destruction and Archery, since you can't use them both at the same time anyway. Hence, you get three groups of mutually exlusive skills here: One/Two-handed is the close range offense group, Archery/Destruction are the long-range offense group and Heavy/Light armor (or even Alteration) is the defense group. Mages might use Destruction also at close range, although mage + melee is generally a Bad Idea ™.

Augmenting skills are the ones that augment at least one of the obligatory skills. All three tradeskills are included here, as they have significant impact on all three obligatory categories. You COULD opt out of these, but you're going to be much weaker if you do. Which is completely fine if you want to roleplay and/or increase the challenge of the game. Hence, the "choice" here really boils down to which difficulty setting you want to be playing on. For those claiming Skyrim to be too easy, try Legendary difficulty without tradeskills. I dare you!

Optional skills are exactly that: optional. You could skip them altogether or make any one of them the centerpiece of your character. What they do have in common is that you most likely wish to pick at least SOME of them to suit your preferred gameplay style. Blocking makes close range encounters much more survivable, but you could opt to Stealth your way into victory. Or why not become an Illusionist for some divide & conquer goodness, or Conjure up some aides to do it for you. Restoration can both seriously cut regeneration downtime and allow for much longer skirmishes before having to resort to potions.

Finally, we have the low-impact skills, where it doesn't really matter either way. It's actually hard to avoid leveling Speech, and both Lockpicking and Pickpocket are ultimately just means to some extra loot.

By grouping the skills like this, it's IMHO pretty straightforward to deduce how much they should contribute to your level.
- Obligatory: Biggest overall effect on your character's level (100% vanilla or even more), both during the standard 15-100 skill range and past the 100 skill mark. Since it's not really feasible to level more than one skill of each type, EVERYONE except for the really, really extraordinary variants will end up with exactly three such skills, retaining perfect leveling balance.
- Augmenting: Very little or no leveling effect at all (max 10% vanilla). Altering the game's difficulty slider doesn't alter your character's level, so altering the difficulty by opting out of any/all of these shouldn't either. This also makes it possible to further alter the difficulty impact of each by nerfing/boosting each one of them to taste.
- Low-impact: Very little or no leveling at all (max 10% vanilla). The gameplay effects are small either way, just as their effect on your overall level should be.
- Optional: Normal effect on leveling, but greatly reduced effect past 100 skill (80% of vanilla, something like 20-40% past 100 skill). These skill tend to plateau in effect: Summons stop improving, durations become long enough to no longer matter with improved magicka regeneration, blocking has a hard 85% damage reduction cap and Sneak can't get any better once you're effectively invisible to all mobs. These are the ONLY skills that really vary in number between different character builds, but the more of these you use, the less you'll be leveling your obligatory skills. A blocked hit won't increase your armor skills, NPCs killing each other means less available main dps skill exp for you, ditto for your summons, and while Sneak attacks surely are powerful, you'll only ever get a single hit's worth of exp to the dps skill by performing it.

This makes every conceivable character build (self-gimped variant builds excluded) a VERY narrow level range. Problem solved?

 

Yes, that's possible. Just set the corresponding PCLevelSkillExpMults to zero. I kinda like that they have a minimal effect - the sense of achievement is there even if it's a tenth of a pixel on the experience bar, but it won't really matter in terms of leveling balance.

No, you do not need to zero out the exp contribution of obligatory skills, no matter which ones you actually select. That's the whole beauty of it. The balance comes from the fact that you can't feasibly use more than three with a single character...

...and that's exactly why zeroing any of them out would be a bad idea. Sure, you'll take an efficiency hit by abandoning your old obligatory skills, but since they no longer keep on leveling, you still end up with three others that take over the exp dominance in the long run.

Notice that it's perfectly possible to go out of your way to level everything in parallel, by wearing mixed heavy/light armor sets or alternating between the dps skills as you go. You still won't LEVEL any faster by doing it, you'll only end up with a bunch of six mediocre, conflicting skills instead of three good ones with proper focus for each.