Observation on level-squatting

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The best thing about level-squatting is enabling cool new multiclassing variations that are significantly more powerful than un-squatted classes.

However, level-squatting has a huge downside, which is that the game's reward mechanism centers around XP. Once you max out your party's levels in HoF, there's no real incentive to talk to NPCs, and random monster encounters just become a chore instead of a fun, rewarding diversion. There's still some incentive to play the actual game because of the items, but it's very tempting to just bypass all the monsters and side-quests with Mass Invisibility.

This is a problem only with level-squatting because a normal party will never actually reach level 30 in the course of a normal HoF game.

-Max

 

Wait, I don't understand... Why skip opportunities to gain XP while underleveled?

You think dialogue and encounters are a chore? Is it because your characters are hard to keep alive?

Perhaps you are trying to stay underleveled for too long... At a certain point, you cannot face enemies at low levels anymore, and have to stop squatting.

To minimize the damage, you should level up after yo cleared the current map, so your next map will spawn high-level-appropriate opponents.

 

I think he's saying that once he gets his characters to level 30, the game loses much of its point as his characters stop advancing. So he is tempted to just through the game and only do things that will result in equipment upgrades.

 

That's the powergamer's dilemma: Although you want your character builds to become "ready" as soon as possible, even enduring most of normal mode underleveled, you still don't want to lose the sense of advancement from that point on.

Congratulations, you've just discovered why cheese in such quantities is bad for you.

 

Why not just use Dalekeeper and get your characters to level 30 that way? Level squatting is pretty much cheating anyway.

 

Well, level-squatting DOES require a lengthy period of playing underleveled characters. It's just a question of how good self-restraint you have between not getting much of a benefit to blatantly spoiling the rest of the game for yourself.

 

The "problem," such as it is, doesn't occur until you actually claim your deferred reward and level up to 30. There's no real problem trying to stay alive while squatting, and even to the extent it is difficult, that's a large part of the fun. (Side note: normal mode is boring to me now. HoF has its problems, balance-wise, but it's more fun to start out in HoF rather than slog through normal mode instantly killing everything you see, in spite of being underlevelled.)

To the poster who asks, "Why not just cheat up to level 30 with Dalekeeper?", because for me that wouldn't be any fun. Level-squatting is a way of gaining greater rewards by deferring pleasure for longer, but if you just cheat yourself up to level 30 then you haven't actually earned it. YMMV though, you can do that if you want to, just like some people add better items and others alter the XP tables.

Mainly I just wanted to observe that XP is a mechanism for conditioning us as players to like encounters which are unimportant to the actual plot.

-Max

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I'm not even really sure this is a "problem," really--from a plot standpoint, there's no particular reason why I should want to kill every poisonous spider in the Underdark. But while you are still leveling, you do.

This is also a big difference between XP-based games like D&D and RPGs like GURPS, where you usually just get a fixed amount of CP at the end of every session without regard to who or what you killed.

-Max

 

Dumb question, but how does a newly created level 1 party survive in HoF mode? Especially if you choose to take a wizard with you instead of a bard or sorcerer.

Also, how do you level squat your way through normal mode without leveling up at the end of each chapter? I find that I cannot survive the Palisade Battle unless I level up to level 3. I can usually survive the next chapter up until the Shangarn Bridge battle at level 3, but if I want to save the bridge rather than just survive the battle, I must level up before the battle. That usually gives me enough firepower (3rd level spells) to survive the Horde Fortress, but I get murdered by the Remoiz Queen or Sherical at the Ice Temple.

At least, that's how I tried level squatting in normal mode, and I didn't see much of a payoff. When do you guys start squatting and when do you level up? As a result of this experiment I only squat when I want to raise a cross-class skill (usually hide or move silently) but only have one spare skill point, so I'll raise two levels at a time.

 

I usually started squatting at around level 8 or so, giving most of my guys an extra attack and access to some of the best buffs such as Emotion: Hope. Then again, I've heard reports of people playing the ENTIRE normal mode at level five. Note that there's a huge difference between having all level 5s or one or two characters in their teens plus a bunch of level 2's.

 

I haven't done HoF from level 1--I went into HoF around level 3, after Shaenegarne Bridge, since normal was too boring--but I imagine it would be very similar to my experience: rely a lot on summons and missile weapons (Rapid Shot), and running around with your decoy to reduce the opporunity for monsters to attack him. (Shift key is your friend here so you can set up a complicated movement pattern easily.) The hardest battle in the whole game for me was the goblin tunnels under the warehouse in Targos.

To do the Palisade battle as level one in normal mode, 1.) make sure you have lots of ranged missile attacks, 2.) have at least one decoy with lots of healing potions. I haven't tried it, but if your decoy needs more hit points, I think you should be able to buy an Aid spell from the temple right before the battle starts. Your main defense is a strong offense, though--it's like fighting an avalanche with a firehose, you're trying to cut them down before they get a chance to swing at you.

Edit: oh, if you are having trouble saving the bridge, make sure your sorc/wizard gets Invisibility, then cast it on everyone before leaving the dam and turn off the AI. Then when you get to the bridge, stay invisible until you see/negotiate with Xuki, then hit her with everything you've got, probably having the decoy hit a fraction of a round before the others so he gets targeted by any monsters. She should go down almost instantly then you can kill the ogres, and then take your time with the other monsters using your normal tactics. If you don't have enough Invisibility spells then someone will have to Hide instead.

For me, the point of level squatting is to avoid XP penalties for multi-classing, so I squat for all of my final levels. E.g. my dreadmaster/monk/rogue/ranger/illustionist went straight from dread 1/monk 1/rogue 1/ranger 1/illustionist 7 to dread 20 in one hop, so she started squatting at level 11. My druid on the other hand started squatting at druid 10/bard 11/dreadmaster 1, and went to druid 18 in one hop. My battlecleric squatted from 1 pal/25 morninglord to 1 pal/25 morninglord/4 fighter. My sorceress is the only exception to this pattern: she went from sorc 1 to sorc 19 normally, then squatted until a few experience points before level 30 and then leveled up to 29, got some more XP since the rest of the party was still squatting, and took a level of Paladin 1. Then the rest of the party still squatted for a while until my deep gnomes got all their XP, and then everyone levelled up to 30 at the same time.

-Max