What the Jews say about Hungary: the truth

Remove all ads!

There is much international controversy and debate nowadays about Hungary, which is funny, considering the world (and especially Europe) has much more critical problems (economic crisis, debt, etc.). It's a complex and wide matter, and in this topic I don't intend to write about it. Instead, let me focus on a particular matter.

Why? Because it seems that the international press is generally anti-Hungary in these days (that is, when they mention Hungary at all, it is in negative light usually), in fact it's often biased as well. (No wonder, considering the amount of extra taxes our government has put to banks and large companies, which resulted in the anger of foreign countries and thus their press.) So one can often hear that anti-semitism is increasing in Hungary and that the governing party Fidesz has good relations with far right-wing and antisemitic party "Jobbik". (IIRC even Ragusa implied or stated similar things about Hungary's government in older topics.)

What I state is that antisemitism is not greater in Hungary than in Western Europe, and that jews generally do not feel bad here, unlike how certain people and media try to present it. I also state that reports about increasing antisemitism in Hungary are often politically motivated, and I'll prove it with an unbiased source. This is for informing those who may have heard from their local/national media that antisemitism is getting bigger in Hungary and our government does not do against it (or even cooperates with the "Jobbik" party.)

And what makes my statements credible? That the Jerusalem Post has as article which has the same conclusion, i.e. that the situation is much more complex than how international reports or foreign statemen simplify it in their reports. First, I'll quote the conclusion part of the article (so that noone can accuse me that I take out paragraphs from their context):

As the first paragraph of the conclusion reflects, the reports about how much antisemitism is here also depend on the political views and positions of those who talk about it.

Another quote, where two rabbis in Hungary talk about antisemitism (I added the bold parts):

Therefore, if/when you hear about increasing antisemitism in Hungary in your local/national media, I suggest that you take it with a grain of salt. It may (or may not) be politically motivated.

Note that there are a few factual errors in the Jerusalem Post article (e.g. the antisemitic website they mention is independent and is not controlled by the "Jobbik" party, and moreover the Hungarian government tried to close that website in the past, but it's hosted in a server in the USA so even the Hungarian diplomacy couldn't achieve that US closes that website.)

On a side note, the conclusion of the Jerusalem Post article even makes a general statement (which meaning is not about antisemitism):

So this also suggests that whatever you hear about the "emerging dictatorship" and "lack of democracy" in Hungary nowadays, you should take it with a grain of salt.

 

*yaaaaaaaaaaaaawn*

 

As far as I know, yawning to someone's "speech" is considered strongly impolite. But nevermind, not everyone was taught to good manners and tact. Anyway, what else could you have done, considering that you were disproved many times recently (including in my older topics), and pretending to be bored/not interested is an attempt to avoid shame. Those who aren't interested simply do not react. But you needed to react, and yawning was the best you could do. Who knows, maybe you fell in love with Orbán in the meantime.

 

I am seconding Ragusa's reply, very very few people care Baronius. In the last six months I have read a tiny article about Hungary and the problem it has with the EU and the only reason I read the article is because of your previous posts.

However, your post has convinced me that Hungary is both an extremely anti-Semitic country and that Orban is well on his way to becoming a true despot.

 

I've seen nothing in my newspaper about Hungary ... or on any internet new site ... or on the news program I listen to on the radio ... or on TV news....

 

Same here.
It cam up a some time ago in German TV, when the protest in front of the Opera took place, but nothing more since.

 

I too have seen nothing about Hungary in British media.

 

The Dutch have some concern about the constitution changes based on populism.

We are more concerned about the possibility of migration of their workforce to the Netherlands. We are still triple A and have a very low unemployment ratio.

 

T2Bruno: glad to hear. Well, your Hillary Clinton seemed to care. Personally writing a letter to Hungary. (OK, I don't know how many official letters she sends per day, but despite of what she wrote in her letter, she is actually worried about some US church she supports, and actually tried to put pressure on our Prime Minister to enable that church here without further mandatory registration procedure. What is rejecting in her letter is that she "worries" about "Hungarian democracy". She should worry about US democracy instead.).

First of all, my topic was for those who care. On a side note, Ragusa used to post walls of text about Hungary in the past topics, also mentioning anti-semitism. He used to care, and he cares even now (just pretends the opposite), otherwise he wouldn't have replied at all. So his "yawning" was sarcastic, which is very impolite, especially from an educated person.

On the other hand, I'm glad that you didn't notice much information in your local press about Hungary. From here, it looked different, there have been numerous articles (both online and newspaper ones) about Hungary in major international press (including Al Jazeera, Frankfurte Allgemeine Zeitung, NY Times, Washington Post, WSJ, The Economist etc.).

I know they write about all countries, so this is not news, but considering there was a dedicated day of debate about Hungary in the EU Parliament, and that Hillary Clinton personally sent a letter to Hungarian Prime Minister, it seemed that the foreign press also tried to put pressure on the government.

But undoubtedly the international (and Hungarian) left-liberal media tries to overemphasize the significance of the whole situation, and even I believed that the foreign press reactions are more intense (because that is what they tried to prove). I even heard that some Hungarian news were the first item in many European TV news on certain days, lately.

Some links:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,809230,00.html

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ungarn310.html

http://www.voanews.com/english/news...reat-Fuels-Hungarys-Far-Right--137450768.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/business/global/17iht-hungary17.html

http://derstandard.at/1326502895421/Orban-sucht-die-Konfrontation-mit-der-EU

http://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaf...garns-zwei-Optionen_Bankrott-oder-Canossagang

http://diepresse.com/home/meinung/g...-eine-neue-von-der-Gesellschaft-bejahte-Wende

http://euobserver.com/9/114899

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/europe/2012/01/20121395012891707.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16669498

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16670037
http://theeuropeancitizen.blogspot.com/2012/01/debate-on-hungary-in-european.html


And a today's news article:

http://www.freep.com/article/20120122/NEWS07/201220537/In-Europe-a-bad-situation-is-growing-worse

Never forget: it's the Gypsies (Romas) who migrate in most cases (of course, you are right that considering citizenship, they're Hungarians, but considering their origin and culture, they are not). And they won't endanger your employment rate, don't worry.

On a side note, Hungary is around the 15th-17th position on the world considering the freedom of economy (both according to the reports of the Cato Institute and the Fraser Institute), and Holland is only the 30th.
(Sources: http://www.freetheworld.com/2011/reports/world/EFW2011_chap1-tables.xls, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World)

 

I'm from Canada. It often seems to me that the only time Canada gets any play in the international media is when it's doing something evil. Certainly the Americans would rather purchase their oil from the brutally oppressive Saudis than have a pipeline to purchase our horribly sinful oil. Not a peep about how dirty, both figuratively and literally, the Saudi oil is.

But really, it's just perception. I don't believe that Canada is the international community's whipping boy. I don't think Hungary is, either. Certainly your country will take its fair share of criticism, every country does. But really, no one worries too much about Canada or Hungary because on the international stage, we are relatively small potatoes.

So, Baronius, while I admire your patriotic vigor, I have to say, relax, man!

 

To clarify: I specifically don't care about Baronius predictable, predictably poor and predictably zealous defence of the barely defensible.

The new Hungarian constitution is in power now, depriving the constitutional court of the ability to check the constitutionality of tax laws* (checks and balances are only for countries whose leaders are morally flawed, which is fortunately a problem that Hungary doesn't share) - and B has nothing better to do but to tell us, pulling a single quote out of wherever, that all allegations of anti-Semitism in Hungary are enemy propaganda or whatever the Hungarian term for that is.

Obviously, anti-Semitism is a non issue in Hungary, just like autocratic or authoritarian traits. Since Slomo Koves says so, we are asked to suspend our disbelief.

* Imagine there was a law, say, imposing a 98% Baronius tax on everything Baronius earns - by any standard, even Hungarian ones, unconstitutional. Be that as it may, this tax can no longer be challenged in constitutional court because Orbán has deprived it of its jurisdiction in such matters. The Hungarian government is now able to pass taxation and other fiscal bills without any form of checks and controls over its decisions. Now, B is going to tell us that that doesn't matter because it isn't going to happen since dear leader is wise and just, and will only use his new unaccountable powers on those who truly deserve it **. In a constitutional context it is hard to conceive a more moronic answer like that, since rights that are unenforceable for all practical purposes don't exist.

If one abolishes enforcement, one has for all practical purposes abolished the right itself - in this case the rights to property and equal treatment under the law, which naturally doesn't matter because Hungary is special and we outsiders cannot understand, nor properly judge, the necessity of such measures.

** In October 2010 the Hungarian constitutional court struck down as unconstitutional an extraordinary 98% confiscatory tax levied by Orban's administration on severance pay for officials of the former administration. Instead of modifying the bill to meet constitutional criteria, Orbán's party changed the constitution, depriving the court of its jurisdiction. That speaks for itself.

 

You see, you can do better than yawning, Ragusa!

LKD: you may have a point there, but it's a bit more complex than that. There were serious accusations against Hungary (much more severe than Canada and others usually get), and many of those are unjustified; so I thought that those who care (and considering Hillary Clinton sent a letter to HU, some people do care about Hungary, and thus their media/press does care too) should be informed about what the most credible sources say about antisemitism (and other things). But I relax enough, don't worry, and thanks for the feedback.

 

Oh, yes. Only a few "freedom" loving Americans protest over the Saudi oppression --- for the rest, as long as they are willing to sell oil...oh, well.... Keep in mind, because of his oppressive ways, we did boycott Fidel over buying and selling cigars. Aren't we a freedom loving people?

 

Hear, hear. And which of these serious accusations are justified?

And since you appear to have time to spare, why not list and - in your inimitable style - compellingly refute these serious accusations that in your eyes are unjustified?

You could start by explaining why the criticism about your dear leader abolishing judicial oversight for fiscal and tax laws is totally legally awesome and not problematic what-so-ever - or how exactly the Hungarian context redeems what would be seen anywhere else as a fatal flaw.

That's probably because in US media there currently is nothing more important on earth than the travesty of the Republican primaries. I heard Rick Santorum wished that the US are in on murdering Iranian scientists - that from a guy who is supposedly 'pro life'.

That said, I have found US domestic coverage of international matters to be usually poor, in particular on TV. There is good stuff, but it rarely makes it into the mainstream. My epiphany in that regard was a the stark contrast between an interview with the same Afghan woman MP on CNN international and CNN domestic a couple years back. The international interview was sober and professional. The domestic interview, since the MP was critical of the US, saw in essence the anchor scolding her as an ingrate - didn't America bring her freedom?

Hungary is being reported on in the European press, we're neighbours after all, and there is this prevalent if apparently quaint idea of a democratic Europe under the rule of law with shared legal standards (like constitutional courts having jurisdiction for tax laws, too), and as a result the reporting is generally not favourable towards Orbán for all the obvious reasons (like that constitution for instance), much to B's manifest bafflement and dismay. But, so what? Let him be baffled. Let him mope.

If if looks, smells, talks and acts like a democracy slipping into authoritarianism - well, quite obviously we just don't get that it's a special (special as in 'special needs') case where all that does not indicate what everybody thinks it is. We must not trust our lying eyes, which are being deceived by enemy propaganda, or whatever the Hungarian term for that is.

So, just for the heck of it: Orbán is a true democrat and a firm believer in checks and balances and the rule of law in the same sense that Larry Craig just has a wide stance and is totally not gay. We know that because they both say so, with a straight face. What else do we need?

 

Hey, sending such letters and generally minding other people's business (or at least telling them what the US feels about it, regardless of whether they want to know) is a vital part of the job of the US foreign secretary, as far as I know. Albright and Rice did pretty much the same, IIRC.

Actually, the negative stuff I do hear about Hungary mostly has to do with the constitution changes, the pressure on the national bank, or Fidesz's legislative initiatives. That's the first time I've heard of anti-Semitism, but I imagine there may be some there, just as there is some in most places. However, one single guy saying there is, or isn't doesn't mean much. Bobby Fischer was a pretty smart guy (chessmaster and all) and used to say a lot of things about Semitism, but that doesn't mean they invalidate all else ever said on the issue . For now I don't see it as a big issue either way.

I'm sure the right-wing Hungarian media that you at least occasionally peruse tries to overemphasize the significance of anti-Orban media coverage, because it ties into something they try to prove. However, my own opinion - as someone who routinely at least skims the pages of a few news agencies - is that Hungary doesn't get all that much coverage. The last time I read about it is when the EU sent an official letter disagreeing with the policies (that may, one day in the not-so-near-future, lead to trouble), but that's fairly newsworthy - Brussels doesn't mail-troll people all that often .

 

Shaman,
you misunderstand the narrative: Orbán's government is under siege, from the darned socialists subversives and parasites inside the country, and their European allies at the outside. The bad press is the result not of Orbán's actions and policies, because they are wise and just, but of a concerted effort by his enemies in the opposition and abroad to unfairly smear and slander him and his achievements like his glorious new constitution, which is without fault.

B is merely carrying this message beyond Hungarian borders, to unintended comic effect.

 

Sorry for the Cliff Notes version, but that was a wall of text to condense. Baronius, I think the problem isn't that most people on these boards don't care, but that there is nothing to care about. It seems that most people haven't seen anything about anti-semitism in Hungary. The US news is no exception, as we rarely hear anything about Hungary at all.

The larger point here is that the total lack of knowledge by everyone outside of Hungary undermines your central point - there is no international controversy or debate here because apparently no one knows anything about this outside of Hungary. If there is any debate at all, it is by definition national, and not international, as you'd need a minimum of two countries to add the "inter" label. I would say that the international press is largely indifferent about Hungary - as evidenced by the complete dearth of news coverage it gets. Perhaps they would be anti-Hungary - if they cared enough to write about Hungary at all. As for anti-semitism in Hungary and how it is reported on, again, perhaps this would be true - if anyone was actually talking about it outside of Hungary.

 

I admit to not living in Hungary so not having a first hand account of what is going on.

Also I'll point out that if someone has a concern it is polite to pay attention to it without a yawn.

It also seems likely that the concern is overblown and quite possibly stirred up by local (Hungarian) political figures to either excuse themselves when they have done something others question or come up with a distraction so people don't realize that said figures are acting badly.

Requiring a 98% tax on pay may be justifiable is people used their position in government to steal from the government itself and/or the people they are supposed to represent.

However if that is not the case then this is a political figure going out of bounds to weaken his opposition.

Also referring to a group as "the Jews" may be bad wording but actually made me expect a certain amount of anti-semitism simply because when someone refers to a different group of people as "the ___" it often implies that person looks down on ___ in some way. Maybe I'm just looking at it with too much a proper English kind of way (and I know I can sometimes speak in less than a proper manner) but it did strike me.