BG1Tutu - Starting new game

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OK, guys. I've played BG2 several times and did two playthroughs of BG1 (one with a Fighter and one with a Cleric/Ranger that I've exported for BG2 - I'm having a blast playing her, btw).
I've just installed BG1Tutu and I wanted to start a new game. First, I'd like to use the canonical party.
Second, I'd like to play something different. I tried an Assassin, but it's almost impossible, because hiding is freaking hard at level 1. I still like the Assassin idea, because I like some backstab, but it feels lacking right now. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure a shapeshifter druid would wreck serious havok on BG1, so that is a thought to consider (and I'd also get to do the druid grove quests). I also thought on a Bard (I've yet to do the theater as well) or a Stalker (since they get backstab, spells and more hp - I really like this kind of character, but I worry it will suck in BG1 at level 1).
So... any suggestions or experiences?

 

I think both shapeshifter and totemic druid are bit unbalanced for BG1- powerful(or more like cheesy) early on(game wasn't designed for werewolf form/totemic animals early on) but at the end of BG2 they are not so good anymore. Generally speaking BG1 is ranged based game, especially on early levels I'm pretty sure any ranged character/party will wreck havoc so Stalker/Archer rangers; they are a good choice early in the game, but will be weaker later on- but they are still perfectly fine characters. Bards are rather weak in BG1 - they reach their potential later - atm I'm playing Blade (18 18 15 14 12 18), tbh he is not great yet but with offensive spins and buff he is already decent.

If you want to maintain ass-kicking potential not only throughout BG1 but through whole game you could try F/M half-elf or elf... It is really kick ass character and is powerful from beginning to the end, you could start with putting ** in a long bow start with something like 18 18 18 18 10 10 and enjoy

Another good choice would be a Paladin- You can also start with Bows(but perhaps sling would be also good as it uses STR modifier and you can use shield- and shields are worth while in BG1), but you can get heavy armor and high charisma being and not being afraid of letting the yourself leading the group and being shot at to death by arrows

 

I find Fighter/Mages rather boring after having played the game so many times. I wanted something different... and I really don't like ranged combat much.
I'm thinking Assassin with dual to Fighter later would be cool, or maybe a single-classed half-orc Assassin (Str 20 by BGII!).
The one that sounds most interesting by now is a Druid (Shapeshifter) dueling into Fighter later on. He regenerates on base werewolf form, right?
A Blade or Skald doesn't sound very interesting, it just means I'd be able to do the theater later on.

 

A Shapeshifter will absolutely own in BG1. Obviously, at the time BG1 was made, they didn't know about BG2, and the game was not designed to have a Shapeshifter in it. So if you want to just waltz through BG1, the Shapeshifter is for you. I agree with Voy though that all single classed druids are seriously underpowered once you get to BG2.

A Blade or Skald is a very viable option in BG1. Bards are just fun in general. With much less need for arcane magic in BG1, you can make a bard of any type, and have him be the only arcane magic user in the party quite easily. While I do prefer Blades over all the other kits, you may be better served by giving them a bow instead of dual wielding at low levels. Bards are a little squishy in the early going, so I usually stick with missile weapons early in the game. In BG2 it's no big deal as there are armors available that allow spell casting.

While I understand that you are interested in trying out new strongholds, I would definitely recommend against dual classing from anything into a fighter. The fighter gains most of the benefits at their low levels, and gets more limited as they progress. You certainly don't want the fighter to be the second class as you go through BG2.

Having said all that, it really sounds like you'd like a stealth character. There are advantages and disadvantages in deciding between a Stalker and an Assassin. Stalkers have an innate ability of stealth, so if that's the only thing you don't like about your current assassin, the problem is easily solved. Throw on some boots of stealth and leather armor and you're good to go. You will also have the ranger THAC0 table, and so you'll actually be a much more effective backstabber in the early going compared to a thief, and you'll automatically get two proficiency points in dual wield, so your damage output will be greater as well.

With the assassin you hit the nail on the head with the problem - with just 15 points per level to spread among your skills you simply don't have enough skill points to spread around, even in you use Boots of Stealth and Shadow Armor. Once I tried BGTutu with an assassin. The only way I was able to do it was to have two thieves in the party. I kept Imoen, and had her dump all her points into Find/Remove Traps and Pick Locks. I dumped all my points into Hide in Shadows and Move Silently, and used every stealth-enhancing item I could get my hands on. And while you won't get many uses of it early on, the poison ability absolutely owns in BG1 - you're dealing with low-level monsters that hardly ever make their saving throw, so you're talking about a lot of damage.

If you dump everything into your stealth skills, you actually have a pretty good chance by the time you hit level 4 or 5. The only other thing you can do to develop a little quicker is pick a race that gets a bonus to move silently and hide in shadows. Gnomes get a 5% bonus to both move silently and hide in shadows. Elves get a 5% bonus to move silently, and a 10% bonus to hide in shadows. Halflings are at the top of the list with a 10% increase to move silently, and a 15% increase to hide in shadows. Halflings also get to have dexterity of 19, which grants an additional 15% bonus to both move silently and hide in shadows.

So you start with 10% base chance in move silently. Add in 10% for your race bonus, and 15% for your dexterity bonus, and you have a 35% chance there.

You start with 5% in hide in shadows, with a 15% race bonus, and a 15% dexterity bonus, so you're at 35% there too.

You get 30 points to distribute among your thief skills at character creation, and assuming you split them evenly, you'll have 50% in both move silently and hide in shadows at the start of the game. If you pick another race besides a halfling, they will be somewhat lower. (As an aside, being a half-orc puts you in an early hole with points - they receive no racial bonus to either move silently or hide in shadows, and with a maximum possible dexterity of 18, you'll only get a 10% dexterity bonus to move silently and hide in shadows.) Bottom line: It is possible to get a workable assassin in BG1 - it just requires you to have a 2nd thief to handle all the other thief functions like opening locks and removing traps.

 

agreed
If I wanted a stealth character I'd go for Assasin alternatively Fighter Thief(very powerful) and like Aldeth said keep Imoen early on so you can use your skillpoints for stealth and move silently and aid yourself with invisibility spells and potions on lower levels. Assasin sounds fun, poison will definately be useful in BG1.

 

One more thing that's a plus for the assassin - it frees up a party slot in BG2. Skill points for thieves - even with just 15 points per level with an assassin quickly become a non-issue in BG2. There are numerous items that raise your skill - gloves of pickpocketing, ring of danger sense, ring of lockpicks, boots of stealth, and Shadow Armor/Night's Gift. Soon than later you'll have more skill points than you'll know what to do with, and there won't be any need to keep Yoshimo in the early going, or if you have Imoen or Nalia you can use their item slots for more mage-related gear than thieving gear.

 

The problem for the Assassin is actually hitting your target at low-levels as you are a single-classed thief. Half-Orc with 19 Strength makes up for that with +3 to hit. Halflings are not as good melee-wise but better at stealth. Elves get +1 to hit with Long Swords and Stealth bonuses so they get a bit if an advantage as well. Dwarf Assassins are the real challenge!

Assassins can have trouble with Mobs as it is easy to strike down the first opponent, but a bit harder to stealth after that without support from your NPCs. A solo Assassin is a tough play in BG1.

Personally, I like the Half-Orc Cleric/Thief option myself, backstabbing with Quaterstaff and using slings with Str bonus for missles. They can cast Cure Spells, Turn Undead, cast Sanctuary, Hold Person, Silence, Cure Poison, etc... they are the real deal.

 

I like them in BG2 a ton - not so sure how well that would work in BG1. A Half-Orc Clerc/Assassin will have base 20% move silently and 15% hide in shadows assuming 18 in dexterity. He then gets 30 points to distribute however he sees fit. If he sticks 15 into each, he's at 35 MS/ 30 HiS. Ideally, you want these both at 100%. I don't know about you, but I kind of like having both at a minimum of 90% to feel comfortable about using them successfully.

Let's assume that you're going to use the Boots of Stealth (+20% MS, +15% HiS) as well as the Shadow Armor (+15% HiS). As far as I'm aware, those are the only stealth enhancing items you can get in BG1. So now we have a MS of 55%, and HiS at 60%. So you'll need a total of 5 thief level ups - so level 6 as a thief to start to use them regularly. Now there are plenty of XPs to get to level 6 thief (20K) even as a multi-classed character, but you're probably in Chapter V by the time you do that, seeing as how you'd need 40K total XPs (unless you're soloing of course).

So the question becomes how soon do you want to be able to start backstabbing? A halfling assassin would have the necessary skill at level 4 (that's assuming he has the Boots of Stealth, but I didn't include the Shadow Armor because you may not be able to afford it yet). You'll probably be at level 4 by the start of Chapter 3.

Having acknowledged all that, and my firm belief that you won't be very assassin-like for the majority of BG1 as an orcish Cleric/Assassin, the multi-classed character will serve you much, much better once you get into BG2. There's no comparison in fact. So that's the tradeoff you have to decide between.

 

At low levels a cleric is used primarily as a fighter with minor healing abilities -- they have about the same 'to hit'. For the cleric/thief or fighter/thief they will be used as a fighter (not much backstabbing and at 2X who really cares?). The assassin/cleric and assassin/fighter has a +1 to hit for being an assassin and poison ability -- those are not insignificant at low levels. I would venture to say the half-orc fighter/assassin would be a more potent opponent in BG1 than nearly any other low level class (except specialty druids) -- +4 to hit and +8 damage with the ability to poison is somewhat overpowered for a low level character (and totally blows away a 2X backstab by a halfling). In BG2 the ability to backstab becomes significant and the investment in stealth skills can pay off, but you don't really care about backstab until you can get X3 or even X4.

 

You don't have to sell me on the utility of a Fighter/Assassin, or any fighter thief combo for that matter - heck that's what I'm playing right now! I just didn't think he wanted that type of character.

 

What T2B said. You're at 2x backstab multiplier until you reach level 5, then at 9 you get 4x multiplier and and 13 5x. Basically, until you do reach level 5, backstabbing is not so useful. Also, my characters get 40 skill points at character creation, regardless of what thief kit they are.

I played my solo half-orc F/Assassin a little bit yesterday and just walking around a little bit I already got him up to F 3/Ass 4 and equiped with the boots of stealth and that shadow armor.

I just noticed that he doesn't have the poison ability, though. Normally these special abilities get added automatically if I SK a multi-class with a kit. Like a dwarven berserker/cleric got his berserker rage automatically, a half-orc F/bounty hunter got his special traps automatically. Is there some kind of special flag that I need to set before I get the poison ability?

On a different note, in the manual there's a table that shows thieving skills modifiers in combination with various different types of armor. Is this actually ever implemented in BG, because I've never noticed it doing anything.

/edit
He did get a use of Poison Weapon at Assassin lvl 5, so just something that was missed at the start, I guess. And already found the part that I needed to change in SK, just to add the ability Poison Weapon in the Innate-tab.

/edit2
My half-orc F/Ass is actually very powerful in BGTutu so far. Using a composite bow, nothing so far has been able to stand in his way. Big damage, good to hit chances and 5/2 attacks per round make him easier than a R/C solo, a monk solo and an all-mage party so far.

 

If you have a party with a mage/sorcerer/bard stealth becomes less of a need as the invisibilty spell works wonders for backstabbing. Then of course you have Sanctuary as well with the C/T. Noned for waiting to Chapter 5 in either case.

 

My bad.

I don't think it's implemented at all. It certainly doesn't show up on your character screen - I always get the same % chance (that is no penalty) regardless of whether I'm wearing studded leather, leather, or no armor at all.

For whatever reason, I hardly ever use invisibility to make a thief invisible. In fact, I hardly ever memorize invisibility. I have no explanation for this. It's not like there are a ton of "must have" spells on 2nd level that you couldn't squeeze in an invisibility or two. Like level 1 has magic missile, chromatic orb, and indentify, and you need all of them. Level 3 has a bunch of direct damage spells, monster summing, and dispel magic. Practically every spell level except 2 has a bunch of good spells.

I usually load up on mirror image, and occasionally a not very effective direct damage spell (I don't even like Web or Stinking Cloud).

 

I believe a mod fixes the armor penalty to Thieving skills. I know it affects skills in my game. I'm not at home though, so don't have the mod list installed in front me to tell you which one. Possibly Rogue Rebalancing?

 

Could be, but I wonder if they implemented it like it was in the table in the manual. Because that looked a bit off to me. Why would leather armor give you a bigger penalty to thieving skills than chainmail? I can't believe stomping around in clinking mail could be quieter than stomping around in leather armor. Sure, it might squeak and chafe when wet, but all those metal hoops in chain mail should still be more difficult to keep quiet than leather, I think.

 

Maybe the mean elven chain mail? - and maybe elven chain mail does clink? I didn't think a regular thief could wear any regular chain mail.

 

Elven chain mail was best (after no armor at all), then regular chain mail or ring mail, and only then padded, hide and studded leather. And there is a note mentioning that only bards can use ring mail or non-elven mail while using thief skills. Or I just refer you to page 234 of the BG2 manual.

 

Leather Armor does not give a penalty to Thief skills in any version of D&D that I know of. I have never noticed a penalty for it in BG either. Elven Chain should give penalties. Not sure if thieves can wear it in BG2. I had a Ranger don it, but never a single classed Thief.

 

I'm almost sure they can. Heck, when you kill the black dragon in Suldenesselar, he drops a set of elven chain mail that Nalia or Imoen can wear and still cast spells (as well as you thief skills of course). I can't imagine there would be an armor out there that would allow spell casting but not use of thief skills.

 

Sorry, I meant "not sure" as in I never tried it, but thieves themselves can wear it in the P&P version. But I wasn't sure about the Infinty Engine rules for the BG trilogy as they tweaked the rules to their liking. I never tried to wear the Elven Chain from the Dragon as I usually will have the Bracers of Defence AC 3 on Nalia. Not sure why I never tried with Immy.