No Kids Allowed!

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It is when much of the research is flawed....

 

What you consider anecdotal can also be considered "research" that was conducted by millions of parents over thousands of years. Not everyone needs a scientist to tell them that fire is hot.

 

Not to mention that whole ivory-tower type thing ...

"Scientists studying lab rats in secret underground laboratories have found that spanking your children can be harmful!"

 

Always entertaining to experience the classic fear and distrust a certain part of the population has always had for the scientific community and progress. *Hur hur* My dad beat me and I am fine and his dad beat him and he was fine so my boy will be fine if I give him a smack now and then *hur hur*. *Hur hur* everyone knows that thunder is Thor driving his chariot across the sky, thats what my father believed and his father before him and thats what I believe *hur hur*.

 

I agree that just because you label something as "research" doesn't necessarily mean it's to be trusted.

Ever seen the TV show Deadliest Warrior? It has a scientist who tells you that a sword blow that decapitates its victim would be a killing blow in a real battle (gee, thanks, I wouldn't have figured that out without your expert opinion). Then they put a bunch of calculations into their computer to determine whether Roman gladiators would have the edge over Apache indians. Um, wait... Roman gladiators fought in arenas... Apache indians fought from stealth, using ambush and hit and run tactics. Under what bizarre circumstances would these groups ever come into conflict? But hey, it's all scientific because they run the battles in their computer program like 4,000 times. It must be reliable information if we have weapons experts, a scientist AND a computer program, right?

The show is entertaining as hell, but it really doesn't tell us anything of substance. It's really just a big ego fest where guys who prefer the weapon of one side call the guys who prefer weapons from the other side names, and vice versa. Then the computer tells us which side would win. My ass!

My point is, just because it falls under the banner of "research" or "science" doesn't mean it should be swallowed hook, line and sinker. Would Apaches really beat gladiators? No idea, in spite of the fact that Deadliest Warrior claims to have answered that question.

 

I think the people conducting thesestudies already have their biases. We cannot confuse physical sciences like chemistry with social sciences. I have no problem with social sciences per se, but they are not absolute in the same way that sciences like chemistry or physics are.

So what the guys in white coats are saying is interesting and valuable, but I'm not going to change my behaviour or beliefs based on their inexact studies. You can find a study to support just about anything these days.

Chandos, you obviously know when to take a child out of a situation. I'm talking about the parents who don't. The people so intent on letting their child "express himself" that they aren't showing any consideration for the people around them trying to enjoy a nice evening out. It's these people who need to be made to understand that while little Johnny is a valuable human being with rights and all of that, so is every other person at the establishment, and while they should show some consideration for his youth and possible special needs, there are limits. I'm not speaking to spanking here, just to doing the considerate thing for fellow patrons.

 

Being your child's best friend is NOT the role of a parent. Parents are to educate and teach their children how to be productive members of society. Parents are to break the nasty habits and rude behaviors before they become an integral part of their kids personality. They are to instill what is right from what is wrong, to the best of their abilities. They are to keep their kids healty, fed, and safe.

There's very little room for being a best friend in there, and crossing that line is a really bad idea. It would only serve to undermine most of what a parents core responsibilities are to their children.

 

And that is where you (and others who believe like you) fail. There is a huge difference between a child being spanked and a child being beaten. People who perceive the former to be the same as the latter have no business in telling people how to raise children.

 

Where, deep down inside I know you're right, I hate hearing it. My oldest tells me daily "Daddy, you're my best friend and I love you". Usually multiple times. She rocks! But I'm not her best friend becuase I let her have what she wants, when she wants it or that I try to be her best friend. I try to be her dad. I'm her best friend because I pay attention to her, love her, listen to her, I teach her things daily and I let her develop her own ideas and encourage her to think freely. I teach her right and wrong. And she understands it.

I will soon have a mini-me. I can't wait!

 

You can raise your kids however you wish - More power to you, Merc. But don't tell the rest of us how to rasie ours. If your role is to raise your kids for "society," whatever that means within a personal context, that's fine for you. But don't be arrogant enough to believe that the rest of us have to do the same.

 

I hear what you are saying, Chandos, but aren't there some general things that we should be able to expect other parents to teach their kids?

For example:

A: While eating at the Olive Garden, Mr. Jones is somewhat startled when a fork comes whizzing over the the decorational wall and hits him in the head. He looks over the wall to see what's happening and sees Mr. Smith, who is shaking is head sadly at young Rufus Smith, a boy of 6 years old.

"Sorry about that," says Smith. "This is the way Rufus expresses his frustration. He's such a scamp! He's a unique individual, and we believe in letting express himself in whatever way makes him feel happy."

Five minutes later, a butterknife comes over the wall, followed by the smashing sound as Rufus starts tossing all the plates on the table to the ground, while Mr. Smith says "Oh, Dear, I suppose we're going to have to pay for that!"

Or how about this:

B: Jane Taylor is shocked to hear from her 9 year old daughter Wanda that a 10 year old boy named Owen Rice pantsed Wanda during recess. When she calles Kim Rice up to talk about it, Kim says "Oh, he's just curious about what kind of underwear girls wear. You know boys are very curious at that age, ha ha. Don't worry, there was nothing sexual about it, and really, I'm surprised at your lack of empathy for Owen. How dare you judge him! I'm not going to tell him to curb his inquisitiveness, it might stifle his growing spark! Don't be so dirty minded and judgemental. Good Day to you!"

Now these are exaggerations, but not as drastic as some would like to believe. Whe i talk about crap parenting, I'm not talking about people not doing it my way or not sharing my specific views, but these are major violations of the social contract, and I would argue that any rational person would agree that the parents' response to the behaviours demonstrated is rotten parenting.

Edit: Note that I'm not saying that the parents' only option is to spank the kid. I would certainly spank the first one, and the 10 year old would be grounded without any TV, video games, or anything else fun until he made a sincere apology to the girl and convinced me that he would never, EVER do something that horrid again.

But when parents do nothing, or even back up the behaviour? That's just beyond the pale, and others have every right to say "you need to do a better job, buddy, because you are effing up royally"

 

Can you post the link for this? This something typical of my son, but no fault of his own. To see him, he looks perfectly normal. Can you link the source of the story for me?

 

Chandos,

I think they are LKD stories, not ones found on the web(except at SP!)

 

Well, he knew the names of the people, so he must of have read it some where. That really is how some special needs children "express" themselves, whether in frustration or out of discomfort.

Of course, he may have witnessed it himself and just made up the names. That means that unless he asked the people himself, the child may well have been special needs. A lot of parents do not like to admit to such things in public. They just might pass it off as he's just a "scamp."

 

My friends' girlfriend was on the bus to work when a young boy of about six jumped up on to the seat next to her. Fair enough.

This boy then did a standing jump onto her lap, stood on her and kept jumping. She tried to move away and called out to the mother who responded

"He's just playing, stop making a fuss." and gave her a rather wicked look.

If anyone should have been smacked in that scenario it should have been the mother in the ovaries about seven years ago.

This topic was brought up elsewhere and my response then still stands.

There is a vast difference between being an active and playful child than there is being a child that thinks it's fine to approach other children in an establishment and hit them or steal their toys, to have children that will throw food at the waiting staff or scream and shout at other patrons and knock things off of other tables as amusement while the parents either completely ignore what is going on or shout abuse at anyone who asks their little angel to stop hitting Billy, please.

I for one don't believe that ignoring or encouraging violence of any sort towards other children is suitable in any setting, neither is it fine towards adults. I am mostly saddened by the fact that in its manifestation in children it's most prevalent in it's because they lack the attention, comfort and support from their own family to flourish and thrive.

For children with developmental disabilities it is a challenge, particularly in unfamiliar surroundings to ensure the situation does not trigger any stresses. Most families in the situation will be able to devise means to help alleviate particular stresses but it takes a long time, a lot of work and the parents deserve to be able to take a break from worrying about how to cook dinner whilst monitoring their offspring and have an enjoyable experience.

Other adults making an excessive fuss can be just as problematic as what caused their initial complaint. I've had someone walking past me on a street shout at me to turn my music down on an mp3 player and have a friend who was told his PACEMAKER was too loud.

On the subject of smacking I have smacked children and shock horror I'm not a mother. I've smacked childrens' hands away from fires, pans, candles, plug sockets. I've smacked the back of my cousins' hand when I caught him stealing and once again when there was a fight brewing on a playground. It's never been to hurt and only once has a child said 'ow' from it, but I think a sharp shock they have to pay attention to is preferable to a burn or actually getting beaten by another kid.

 

Yep! Exactly. I live with this everyday. And he just laughs. This jumping and not showing empathy is very typical.

 

Chandos,

I think everyone agrees that when it comes to "special needs" kids, there is not a lot you can do about it when they act up. Especially if they cannot comprehend what you need to relate to them. I for one have no trouble putting up with any special needs person, child or adult. I get it. I understand it. Hell, the wife and I am are volunteers for various help centers in my community and am exposed, though not daily, too many special needs people. I don't envy you in that regard, but I wish you and any other parent in your shoes the best, as I can't imagine a more trying task than what you and your wife have ahead of you.

Most of those posting about problem children I think are talking about or referring to problem kids who are not special needs. But are instead knowingly donig wrong and getting away with it for whatever reasons.

 

Chandos?? Really? Lashing out at me for making such a benign statement does not reflect well. What in the world is arrogant about stating:

What I mean by making them a productive member of society is as parents we do our best to equip our children to be prepared for life outside the front doors of our homes. If you somehow disagree with that, then I fear for your children. But I don't believe for a second that you actually do, so it seems you're just trying to pick a argument for the hell of it. I won't fall into that with you.

What I stated is no less important in a special needs case then it is with a "typical" child... though the bars and expectation that are set might change, and how those lessons are delivered might also change. But there is nothing arrogant about acknowledging a parent's duty to equip their child as best as they're able. They're going to go outside, and worse yet... you're not always going to be at their side.

That said, I'm CERTAINLY not telling anyone HOW to raise their children. Equip your kids in the way that YOU see fit, but for the love of god, equip them (which I believe you are doing, based on some of your other posts, so I have no idea why you would take exception with anything I said).

For what it's worth, my first born is diagnosed autistic, so I know something about what it means to parent a special needs child. Happily, he's "high functioning" today, but it wasn't always the case.

Honestly Chandos... reread my post. There was nothing, and I mean NOTHING, high and mighty about it.

 

First, Merc, I'm not lashing out at you. As I said, more power to you.

Talk about lashing out.

My point to you is that not everyone agrees on what is good parenting.

Yes, then you do know. But not all autistic children are the same, and in fact, you should know that many are never able to "walk out the frontdoor," because of their needs. And you should know that autistic children are affected in different ways.

I'm very happy for you that your child is doing well - Very happy. I know how it is to live in that situation.

For my son, he is too young for us to know yet, but even with early intervention -- A stay at home dad to tend to him all day, and an intervention with the state, with two different social workers coming into the house every week -- he seems to be getting worse as he gets older.