Dad who killed scumbag drug dealer to save daughter

OK, first of all, why are you letting your 16-year old daughter move in with a 24-year old boyfriend? She's still a minor - she shouldn't even be allowed to move out of the house if you don't want her to. Hell, a 24-year old shacking up with a 16-year old is probably illegal in some places.

 

Yeah, that's my thinking as well.

Actually, I'm surprised he got off with manslaughter rather than murder. He took a gun (which in Canada is illegal in the first place) to confront the guy, and then proceeded to shoot him 10 times. He claims self defense, against a ... fist.

I can understand him being upset, but if being angry at someone is justification for killing them, well, at least there wouldn't be a risk of over-population.

 

What do you do to stop her? If you forcibly prevent her from going there, you're likely to end up with some sort of assault charge. Some sixteen year olds are pretty good sized, so that kind of thing can end up being a fight moreso than a "listen here young lady!" moment. And the guy doesn't exactly look like a hard case himself. And (summons LKD ) guess what - a judge is not likely going to say you were justified in assaulting your daughter to prevent her from running off with her dirtbag boyfriend. The law really doesn't favor the people in 'the right' in these scenarios, taking moreso a "tough sh*t, you can't hit your daughter for anything" attitude.

I would think that about all you could really do is cut off financial support as a consequence of her actions and hope that was enough to draw her back, but if she found some means of supporting herself (e.g. based on the nature of the situation, dealing drugs or prostitution), you'd really be SOL.

I don't envy parents who find themselves in this predicament. But, if the dad was really left with no other options, he might have done better to arrange a get-the-message beating for the boyfriend than to shoot him ten times.

 

Maybe if he did a better job as a parent for the first 16 years of her life, she'd realize that she was making a poor decision. A 24-year old guy shacking up with a teenager? Really? I don't know the laws in Canada, but that's illegal in some places and would get you a statatory rape charge. There's no reason why you should be doing that stuff at 16.

I know as a parent that you cannot make your kids make the right decisions, but you certainly have influence, and if you raised them right, they'll come through more often than not, at least on the big decisions. Given that about 99.99% of 16-year old girls would NOT do this... I mean, it's not like I'm setting the bar unreasonably high.

Let's just say that chances are, if your 16-year old daughter thinks that getting into drugs, prostitution, and living with a 24-year old boyfriend who is only with her because he likes banging her is OK, then you F-ed up as a parent.

 

My mother moved out at sixteen originally to move in with her 25 year old boyfriend but ended up getting her own place instead (The guy thought she was kidding when she said she was sixteen. She looked older than her older sister) She got a job and supported herself until she moved back home to look after her parents when they were in a car crash.

Then again she didn't start doing drugs of course.

The guy did get off pretty lightly, but I can see his reasonings behind his actions, defending your child is one of the most instinctual actions there is.

 

Aldeth, part of me wants to agree with you, but another part thinks you are dead wrong. Children are not recipe driven -- this much time camping, this much time doing chorse, this much time doing homework, sprinkle in some free choice time, give them just the right clothes and accessories, and BOOM you'll have a perfect kid every time! Follow these instructions!

I've seen some really screwed up parents end up with good kids, and I've seen some great parents end up with some rock bottom pieces of crap. Granted, there may be trends, but I don't think that blaming the parents is a valid call unless we know a little bit more about a particular situation.

Thanks for the summoning call, Gaear! I was chilling in the Beastlands when I heard your call.

The problem here is that where do we draw the line for parental protection of the daughter? I mean, the Muslims (and others, I'll be fair here) feel the exact same way about their daughter taking up with a non-believer as this guy did about his daughter taking up with a drug dealing, pimping sack of crap. I mean, really, some of the students I have taught would RATHER their daughters take up with a drug dealing, pimping sack of crap as long as he was a Muslim drug dealing piece of crap! We don't tolerate murder from them no matter what their feelings on the matter (well, OK, we DO make excuses for them as spineless, guilt ridden Western pluralists who seek to excuse every atrocity ever committed by Muslims in the name of culteral relativity, but I digress -- DECENT people don't tolerate it from them) and so we shouldn't tolerate it from this father either, no matter how much I empathize with his pain and frustration.

 

Just to be nitpicky , I'd say more like 100% of teenage girls do show defiant behavior at some point or other in their teens.

 

I agree, at the surface this looks like murder to me. As always though there's certainly a lot we don't know about the case. What I can imagine though is the outcry that would have followed if the roles were reversed. The father attacking with a fist and the drugdealer shooting and then getting an equal sentence. I can already hear the accusations about "bleeding-heart liberals".

 

It is easy to point the finger at the parent. Maybe this guy was a great parent and there was no stopping htis outcome from happening regardless. Every kid is different and most are not easy to raise. You are lucky Aldeth, you have a boy. You have one pecker to worry about. I have 2 girls, I will have to worry about all of them..... as did this father. It f**** with your head, trust me. Mine are only little ones and I already think about it.

 

I don't know, I can see it him taking the gun more to intimidate the other guy - and plus, a 40-something year old might be a bit afraid to confront a 20-something guy with criminal background and wanted the added protection. Probably a stupid thing to do, but he obviously wasn't thinking quite coolly here. It's hard to prove either's version because, obviously, the other guy's dead. I guess it depends on the testimony of any witnesses whether he wanted to just shoot the guy or if (as his defense is) he only wanted to get the girl back and the other guy wanted to make it a fight. If someone's holding a gun at you, trying to act tough can be terminally stupid.

I think you have to prove intent to charge someone with murder, right? If they couldn't prove that, he gets manslaughter. Add in some extenuating circumstances, and I can more or less live with that sentence. Yeah, he got off light - for a killing. Then again, what would a more severe sentence accomplish here?

 

I don't know all that much about criminal law in general and even less of Canadian law but I would figure that entering someones apartment with a concealed weapon goes a long way to proving intent. You have a point though and the sentence is probably correct all things considered.

 

That generally depends more on the guy with the gun than anything else.

 

True, but if someone has a drawn gun chances are they've not leaning towards showing saintly understanding and patience. Unless you are 200% sure they won't use it, provoking them only harms your chances of getting out unhurt.

The memory loss bit sounds like bull to me, though. Unless he was drunk or high, or if he had been hit heavily (and there would be plenty of evidence from that), I don't imagine how he'd have any.

 

Therein lies the error many people make - assuming any given thing or what the 'chances' are. Each situation can vary wildly, likewise the mentality of the guy with the gun. I guess TV makes us tend to think stereotypical bad guy, but it can actually be good guy, bad guy, nervous guy, sadistic guy, uncertain guy, insane guy, drug-addled guy, inexperienced guy, mass muderer guy, or any other guy. (And that's just the guys. Man-hater gal and gentle-flower self-defense gal et al are a whole different story. ) Anyway, each type of guy requires independant evaluation. (I'm asuming we're talking about a scenario like in this story, where someone just has you at gunpoint, not a robbery or anything like that.)

Assuming that the guy with the gun is automatically a generic bad guy can itself be really reckless and dangerous. e.g., some hardcore sadists feed off of fear and will smell that on you in a second. With them, acting like a tough guy could be the better strategy, as they may 'respect' that. And that respect, such as it is, may keep you alive.

 

Good, bad, he's the one with the gun. Yes, a few creepy ****s might get off on people's fear - but most people don't. When it comes to that, my personal view is that you should go for fight or flight, not anything in between. For every twisted case that enjoys it, there are 10 people angry/scared/confused out of their minds, which are much more likely to shoot you for your trouble if you try acting up. That's why I said - if you aren't 200% he's not going to shoot, don't act like you're in charge. You aren't, really. And with the other guy holding the gun. you don't want to bring up this issue.

Long story short - if the other guy has a gun and you don't, don't act like a smartass.

 

What if neither is particularly possible - e.g. he's got you backed into a corner and he's drawn down on you and keeping you at safe distance so you have little hope of rushing him before he can react and fire? What if you have a clear route of escape but your two year old child doesn't? What if your wife is lying semi-conscious on the floor? All reasons for you to attempt some form of management of or negotiation with the gunman.

Let's try a hypothetical within the context of this very case. You are the dirtbag boyfriend, hanging out with Daddy's little girl. Daddy shows up, gun in hand, presumably to save his little princess but in reality he's there to shoot you because he's scared and feels powerless and doesn't know what else to do. You hand over Princess and apologize, but Daddy doesn't leave. He's shaking and has a deer-in-the-headlights look in his eyes, the gun still pointed at you. Do you still comply with everything he says and patiently wait for him to summon the resolve to shoot you, or do you try something else?

 

Gaear seems to have some rather well-formulated thoughts/opinions on such things. Something tells me you've had a few guns pulled on you. Are you in a law enforcement role, or something?

 

No. Private sector - investigative/risk management/protection type stuff. My motivation here though is not to 'big stuff' it, but to show people that what really goes on in these types of scenarios is rarely what you would 'imagine' it to be, because imagination is pretty much the opposite of experential knowledge. That's not something you should be basing life-or-death decisions on, and it takes a gut-check to acknowledge that you don't know. Thing is, not knowing and knowing you don't know doesn't somehow make you less of a man or anything like that (which is the kneejerk reaction most people have). On the contrary, it's the first step to becoming informed ... which is where you want to be.

 

If I thought I could talk my way out of it, I'd probably try. However, negotiation or management is one thing - trying to intimidate (if, indeed, that is what happened) the guy with the gun is another. It strikes me as almost absurd - he's a guy holding a gun in your direction, probably as pissed as he's scared, and you are trying to act like a big shot. You are right, there are a lot of things we can't always know - but this seems to be a simply foolish decision if you don't know the guy. Do you want to give him a better reason to shoot you?

In the situation you picture, if I kept my wits, I'd probably try telling him he's got what he came here for and no need to make this a bigger mess, etc. I'd have probably heard something about him from the girl so I'd expect he's not a killer at heart, and I imagine the she'd would be making a pretty big show of not wanting me dead.