Small party of 2 - questions

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I'm planning to start IWD2 right after I finish IWD+HOW

I want to finish IWD2 with a party of 2 characters who are both can cast spells and ain't useless in either melee or raged combat. Thing is I have no exp in 3e read some guides but I'm still pretty noob.

I have few questions about creation of this party
I'm playing with my GF so I want to give here a good arcane caster
who can engage at least in ranged combat against random enemies.

As a 2nd character for me it could be some cleric or druid thing with mix of warrior. But basically a caster just other than wizard to get bigger spell selection.

On top of that, I know i's possible to complete IWDs and BGs without a thief just walking into traps but it's bad from role play reasons for me, so it would cool to have enough rogue levels to disarm traps and open locks to mix-in

The reason I want to mix in warriors is that IWD is based much on combat with relatively weak but multiple enemies I guess it's the same in IWD2. I suspect basing in magic alone will require more rest and will elongate the game. But maybe this reasoning is flawed ^^ so tell me plz

suggestions are appreactiated

what about exp in such a small party? How fast will we hit the cap? Is it possible/worth it to remove the cap?

 

Without going into spoilers, the arcane caster should most likely be a Sorcerer, as long as you're familiar with the spells available. (Read a FAQ if you aren't, really.) You'll get more casts per day, you don't need to pick them in advance for each day and most importantly - you're not hamstrung by the lack of scrolls.

There's plenty of ranged weapons available, just make sure you have the proficiency for whatever you choose. In case you have STR bonus, give missile/throwing weapons a nod and don't forget to pick (and activate!) Rapid Shot if you can.

Clerics are already warriors and depending on how you see it, they actually beat warriors in combat ability. If you can keep Cleric your favored class (Human, Half-elf or female Drow will do) you might consider dropping in a level of Fighter and Rogue to round your abilities if you want to.

Since you're going duo, you'll reach high enough level to receive a big, flat ZERO experience for a vast majority of your kills somewhere around Chapter 2 or so. This effectively limits your maximum level way below the official level cap, unless you do a second run-through in HOF mode. For reference, normal size parties end up around level 16-17, or 26-27 in HOF mode, by the end of the game.

 

That sucks big time, what is minimal party size to not get this penalty? If I understand it right, we would level to some point and then stop finishing the game with same exp as we would have 1 or 2 more characters in our party?

yea I know diff between sorc and wiz but I'll go for wiz to have wider arsenal. So I think it would add some variance to normal spell selection, don't want to limit us on first run through.

 

Because of the dynamic XP calculation and the limited number of stat points you have to distribute IWD2 is far harder to play with a party of 2 than IWD.

Because of the reduced combat XP your 2 characters will only be about level 20 at the end.
If you don't like getting 0 XP you can install the "Always Get Some XP Per Kill" component from the "IWD2 Ease-of-Use".

You don't need warrior levels for fighting effectively. With the right stats you can do lots of damage even with quarterstaff and sling and you can take feats to use greatswords, greataxes or polearms for more damage without warrior levels, multiclassing will slow down casting progression, but if you do so give a barbarian level to both characters for extra speed (don't take it too early and make sure both aren't lawful).

If you want to use the thieving skills I suggest the following party with the following stats (str-dex-con-int-wis-cha)

Half-orc priest of Mask (true neutral) 20-16-18-1-18-1 (raise hide, move silently and maybe concentration skill at level up, human is also an option if you want more skill points)
Human rogue1/wizard 15-18-18-18-4-3 (start with a rogue level for skillpoints, tiefling with 15-20-18-20-4-1 does work too if you don't add another class)

Feats which are useful early in the game are dash and dodge.

 

thanks for another bunch of useful info

Sounds cool, with party of 4 ending level would be also around 20 or lower?
And this with expansion or without?

I guess I pick human for role playing reasons
So 1 rogue lvl with **** loads of INT will provide me with enough skill to disarm traps and pick locks throughout the game? If so wow, the way
to make rogue obsolete.

Also I just started IWD with Ranger and tracking seemed to be adding
some fun to role-playing component I think it could give me some fun
as I never played IWD2 before. So similarly to 1rogue/wiz, could I take
1ranger/cleric and get tracking skill and maybe some more cool perks for virtually free? Or are there other reasonable builds to get there?

 

It depends if you're speaking in roleplaying terms or powergaming. If you're nostalgic about the 2nd edition ranger/cleric combo, then go for that by all means. If you're looking for a powerful build, then a ranger1/clericX is an ineffective mix: The ranger's major bonus at level 1 is dual wielding skills when wearing light or no armour. Clerics can wear heavy armour and shields without getting spellcasting failure from it. You have a wide range of options for equipment, but it just seems a waste. When you're wearing armour, you miss out on dual wielding, and when you dual wield, you miss out on armour.

If I may make a suggestion, look at my IWD4dummies guide, specifically the characters below, and see if they fit your needs.
Lizzt Do’Urden LN 18-18-16-5-18-5 Female Drow Dreadmaster of Bane X /Fighter 1
Charmian Illuster NE 12-20-18-18-5-1 Svirfneblin Rogue 2 / Illusionist X
Sasquia of Ilmater LG 16-18-18-3-3-18 Human Sorcerer X / Pal 1 / Ranger 1

p.s. if the cleric must be male, don't take a drow, go for a human instead

 

Without the XP mod a party of 4 would be around level 16-17 at the end, just like a party of 6. I never used the XP mod but it will make a big difference with a party of 6 and an even bigger with a party of 4.

Even a pure mage is able to pick locks and disarm traps, 18 int alone grant +4 to search and disarm. The rogue level just adds 2 to the skill maximum you can have and lots of skill points. The game seems to use d20 rolls for thieving skills, so you can fail with 10 and succeed with 5 skill depending on luck.

Tracking in IWD was replaced wit the "wilderness lore" skill. If you like using this skill to get descriptions of the areas you're in you should place it on the main interface (see manual p.12) so you can use it with one click.
Wilderness lore is a class skill for druids, rangers and barbarians, but any class can use it. It's wis based, so a cleric with 18 wis has already 4 in it and can use it effectively without spending a single skill point. If a check fails you can retry as often as you want.

Barbarian1/cleric is superior to ranger1/cleric.
The ranger's two-weapon fighting bonus is useless since 2-handed weapons do far more damage so +1 to hit and damage versus only one enemy type is the only advantage.
The barbarian level grants 2 hitpoints more, allows taking the "heroic inspiration" feat, barbarian rage instantly grants 2 extra hitpoints per level when you're in danger. Most beneficial is the speed bonus you get when not wearing heavy armor, you can cross areas faster and being able to move faster than enemies offers a huge tactical advantage.

 

I'd say that having a good few points in wilderness law is a must for a certain part of the game

 

Thanks helpful guide and interesting characters, I like those drow priestesses though I can hardly imagine drow paladin female Anyway would you still take rapid shot so late in a party of 2? Or you give rapid shot for HOF mode because they are no longer so powerful in melee?

Drow seems to be most powerful class at first glance, what are racial alternatives for powerful clerics both male and female? I mean drow get extra points so which stats i would have to cut for say human or halfelf who get lower starting stats.

thanks that's good news I let my cleric do that

Why not get level 2 and evasion skill? Will another level of rogue hurt spellcasting later on?

how many is good few ?

Atm I'm set on rogue/wiz and a cleric of sorts, not sure yet exactly what type of cleric. Thanks for advices and good reads.

 

About 15 I think

 

Human is always superior to half-elf, unfortunately. When you go for a human cleric, make the stats 18-16-18-3-18-3. When you level up, maxing CON instead of WIS is a viable alternative: the battlecleric. Most cleric spells don't need a high DC since they have no saving throw, so wisdom is of limited use. With a 2 man party, you'll really like those extra hitpoints

Cheese alert!

Spoiler

IIRC, 1 point activates the wilderness lore skill, WIS bonus boosts it nicely, and then you can just keep clicking on it (even while paused) until you get a successful die roll. So you only need 1 point.

 

Thanks great news about that wilderness lore
I'm curious about wizard from your powergaming party;

rogue1
wizard 2-7
rogue 8
wizard 9-12
banite 13
wizard 14-20
ranger 21

- why not just take two levels of rogue at the beginning, what's the diff, exp penalty??
- would stats would you take for human female wiz?

I'll take male cleric of Bane with that stats you said above,
I'm curious could if I develop it the same way the drow priestess or
other way would be better? I'm thinking of Lathander too, since that hp boost seems nice.

damn this 3e looks a bit more complicated than 2e :S

 

Every single non-caster slows down spellcasting progression. Being able to cast higher level spells and at higher casting levels is far more useful than an additional rogue level.

Evasion isn't very important. There aren't many enemies who cast spells at you, very few of those spells allow a reflex save for half damage. And even then you first have to make your save to get no instead of half damage.
It's useful if you plan sending this character forward and bombarding him and surrounding enemies with fireballs, but clerics aren't famous for mass bombard spells. Adding a barbarian level for speed and weapon profs will help more.

In a party of 2 with the XP mod your wizard will level faster than he finds scrolls and casters are almost maxed out at level 20, so adding a few other class level won't hurt, just don't do it too early.

Rapid shot gets extremely useful as soon as you can do better than 1 fixed crossbow attack per round, for high strength characters that's at creation (slings grant a strength bonus).
I'd take it at level 1 for the 18 str cleric and at level 3 for the wizard (when the cleric reaches level 3 he can buff the wizard's strength to 18+ with the bull's strength spell).

There are locks later in the game you can't pick with only 5 skill no matter how often you retry, I guess the same applies to wilderness lore, using it is more difficult in some areas, but there's no benefit in raising it unless you fail 10 times in a row or so. Wilderness lore is no "trained only" skill, you don't have to use a skill point to activate it.

If you want to max another stat at level up besides wis for your cleric I recommend strength and not con, this will be more fun and speed up the game, it won't make a big difference whether you get 12 or 13 hit points per level.

 

The reason a rogue level is worthwhile at level 1, is because starting a high INT character as a rogue gets you a lot of skillpoints to be allocated as class skills in Hide, Move Silently, Detect Traps, Lockpick, and Pickpocket. The reason i took my 2nd rogue level at level 8, was because my 6 member party had need for more rogue skill by then. Also, by having 20 INT at level 8, i got an extra skillpoint too (minor perk). Be aware that a character started as a rogue will have that appearance on screen: the default paperdoll will have a cowl and pants, instead of a robe. It never bothered me, and wearing actual robes changes the appearance anyway.

Wilderness lore doesn't even need activation, so you only need a high-WIS character with a level druid, ranger or barbarian. By putting the wilderness lore button on your quickslots, you can more easily click on it continually until you roll a 20.

EDIT: About rapid shot: I wasn't a fan of it in the past, but board members did the math for me, and demonstrated that it always remains useful. Take it as soon as all more urgent feats are taken already.

I know I know, but I make my priorities very clear in my guide:
"Roleplaying concerns were not taken into account when creating the party. A Lawful Good Drow Morninglord of Lathander was not dismissed for being an unrealistic character. The only roleplaying features involve cosmetic things, like names, biographies and pictures."

 

Can you point out possible flaws of this party which is based on proposals made by you here and coin's guide?

Human Male, CG, 18-16-18-3-18-3
Barbarian 1 / Cleric of Lathander X
Barb level taken at first level

Human Female*, LN, 12-18-18-18-9-1
Rogue 1 / Wizard X
may take one more rogue level or bane level later on

* or Elf Female. Would elf get exp penalty? If I understand it correctly
if elf would take 1 rogue/ wiz 6 and then 1 or 2 more levels of rogue it would not.
Is Elf a better choice though?

 

A lathanderite barbarian: "Grrr. If you don't see light, me will thump you one till you see stars!"
They seem like sound characters. Choosing Elf isn't bad in this situation, since a high-INT character won't suffer too much from not getting an extra skill/level, and the extra wizard feats will alleviate the loss of the human's free feat. I'm not sure which would be better. Elven bonuses sure are attractive: Sword proficiency, +2save vs. enchantment, sleep immunity, +2 Search....
Still, don't underestimate a rogue's need for skillpoints. A wizard will be spending most points as cross-class skills, meaning they cost 2 points each. And spellcasters have a need for feats to cast spells effectively.
And perhaps you should consider spending less points on WIS (which only gives you a slight will save bonus) and more on STR, which will help you out a lot more often. Strong mages aren't very traditional, but they are effective in a scrap.

 

Well it's barb1 so he just found peace and harmony early in his life becoming a cleric of Lathander I thought of Tempus or Selune too, what you think of these 3 classes? Anyway I saw the spell selection for priests and do non-Tempus priests get recite (which is basic spell for all priests in 2e games)

Still in your illusionist you didn't put it lower than 5. You get some penalty at 4?

Plus I see you like evocation spells, looking at spell selection i should give evocation to lathandrite, but what with wizard then? Should i focus on other school or both with evocation is fine?

Wow seems like one question spawns another sorry for bothering you xD

 

Recitation is a standard level 4 cleric spell. LG Lathanderites could mix in a level paladin later on to use the quest sword. Tempurans are best used pure with an axe; if you mix in a warrior class, the martial weapon proficiencies make axe feats almost obsolete. I ranked the cleric orders for their effectiveness as frontliners & spellcasters in my guide, which you can see in the spoiler.

Spoiler

Remember that I am evaluating these main classes for effectiveness as frontliners primarily, but also as spellcasters. According to my analysis, the strongest to weakest melee combatants would be:
1) The Dreadmaster of Bane with GSF: Enchantment.
2) The Morninglord of Lathander with GSF: Evocation (Unholy Blight is Evocation, so why is Holy Smite Necromancy?). Spirit of Flame would improve damage.
3) The Stormlord of Talos with GSF: Evocation, then GSF: Necromancy, later Transmutation if possible. Scion of Storms would work very well.
4) The Painbearer of Ilmater with GSF: Necromancy.
5) The Watchknight of Helm with GSF: Enchantment.
6) The Battleguard of Tempus has few attack spells, but a Deep Gnome could take this for example, and take combat abilities and feats when leveling, instead of SF. The Axe feats make it an interesting battlecleric build. I rank them 6th because they miss out on quest bonuses that casters above can get, due to alignment limitations. [by mixing in a level paladin]
7) The Silverstar of Selune with GSF: Evocation.
8) The Lorekeeper of Oghma with GSF: Enchantment, then Necromancy.
9) The Demarch of Mask, all SF is of limited use.
10) The Druid offers a huge amount of attack spells, many can be improved with SF. Start with GSF: Transmutation, then Evocation. More focus isn’t needed after that, but Necromancy is slightly more useful than Enchantment. Spirit of Flame and Scion of Storms feats work wonders too. Druids rank 10th because their combat buffs are fewer than clerics, and it makes them average frontliners. But as offensive spellcasters, or when modded & shapeshifted at high level, they should be on top of the list! Spell Penetration would be bad for druids, if you have party members with SR. They beat melee classes by virtue of the Heal spell, and shapeshifting.
11) The Paladin is like an inferior, combat oriented cleric. It offers few offensive spells. Take GSF: Transmutation if you want your Lower Resistance to work better. And Evocation aids 2 spells at level 6.
12) The Ranger is almost like an inferior, combat oriented druid, like what the paladin is to the cleric. But it has a few unique spells. Take similar SF feats as the druid. But rangers have no Necromancy, and have little use for elemental feats.
13) The Wizard/Sorcerer: if you paid a little attention to CON, DEX and STR at the start, the arcane specialists can pitch in with combat, maybe even melee. All elemental and SF feats are useful, depending on your available spells, and casting style.
14) The Bard; the master of no trades. GSF: Enchantment suits them well, Evocation is nice too, but you might want to improve their only 2 Necromancy spells (Horror, Wail o/t Banshee). You probably won’t get around to Transmutation; those spells are OK too. Elemental feats aren’t that useful, but Spell Penetration may be handy, depending on your spells. I choose to give up on melee with bards, partly because their spell feat requirements don’t leave room for combat feats.
The elemental feats mentioned are optional if you’re human and have feats to spare; don’t adjust a character just to get them. Clerics without elemental feats do fine, so don’t increase INT for extra skills, and definitely don’t reduce Concentration! Spell Penetration should be seen as extra boost to debuffing spells, but is of low priority.

My illusionist is a Deep Gnome, which gets an innate +2WIS bonus. Unfortunately this means the stat can't go lower than 5.
Evocation is powerful and useful, but targets the reflex saves of enemies. You'll have a hard time against rogues and other opponents with high reflexes. Make sure you have some alternative. Any other focusable spell school is fine: Necromancy targets fortitude mostly, enchantment attacks the willpower, and transmutations are varied, but the spells are less powerful. It would be best if your two characters didn't have the same spell focus early on; I'd suggest an enchanting wizard, which can still take evocation feats later in the game.
One of the nicest things about combat tactics, is trying to guess the right spells that are effective in a particular situation. It's awesome when an enemy cleric is frozen in place for ages after failing a reflex save against a Chromatic Orb.

 

yea I read it already ^^ just thought you'd have a specific preference for a small party but I guess small diff like that wouldn't matter anyway
Yea I saw many builds where people take paladin lvl so i expected smth like that, anyway paladin is a bit too zealous for my liking.

Thanks for the tips about the spells

Well I'm pretty much set on party of wiz and cletric so thanks for help everyone

 

You should go with the good xp penalty races -- more powerful, reach about the same final level, and even delay the point where you start gaining 0 xp per kill.

I don't think the barbarian level does much for your cleric.