Multiculturalism dead in Germany (according to Merkel, anyhow!)

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I'm too lazy to find a link, but I'm sure by now that we've all heard what Chancellor Merkel had to say about the state of German Multiculturalism. Predictably, some people on the broadcast characterized her comments as "racist". I say they are idiots.

Very few people have a problem with newcomers following their own religious practices, eating their own foods, wearing different clothes, and otherwise keeping their home customs. The problem arises when simple, reasonable requests for respect to be shown to the other members of society are characterized as "attacks on freedom" or such nonsense.

Take the mosque issue. I personally don't give a flying <snip> at a rolling doughnut if they want to build them as long as they use their own money and not government money. But they damn well need to follow our zoning laws and out nuisance laws, just like every other frigging church building. No claiming discrimination when denied for the same thing a Protestant Assembly or Jewish Synagogue would be denied for.

Or the whole full face burka. I don't give two craps about how they feel about it, full facial coverings are not accepted in an open and free society. Lots of Muslims I know get by with crown covering hijabs while leaving their faces visible.

Or holidays. You want to take 30 days off for Ramadan? Your employer has a policy that says you can't miss more than 15 days without a medical reason? Adapt or kiss you job goodbye, *******. Or make an arrangement with your employer wherein you give a little, instead of crying "racism" every time things don't go exactly your way.

Settled residents who feel they've already done immigrants a favour by letting them come to the country don't take kindly to the insinuation that they are Nazis underneath. It is not unreasonable for them to expect immigrants to show some frigging gratitude rather than insults, insinuations, and demands for us to become more like them. It's no wonder that there is a wave of right-wing cultural protectionism sweeping Europe.

Are all immigrants like this? of course not, I've said that clearly several times. Are all Muslims like this? Again, no. But I am finding that overall, it's a certain sort of Muslim immigrants that causes these sorts of troubles, and I think we need to send the bad sort back.

I say we give them 10 years of "probationary citizenship". At the end of 10 years, we evaluate their ability to speak English. We evaluate whether they have been net contributors to Canada's economy or if they have taken more from social programs than they have put in. We look at their criminal records and their employment histories. We find out how much trouble and hassle they have caused people.

If they can't pass a simple English test, or if they are social program freeloaders, or if they don't have and never had a job, or if they have committed any felonies (or even some misdemeanors), we send them frigging packing back where they came from. If their own home countries don't want them, we ship them back anyway and leave them stranded at the airport in their home country. Enough is enough. No more citizenship in 2 years. No more letting them stay because they had kids here -- either they take the kids with them or leave them behind. Children of people on probation do not automatically get citizenship. We make citizenship something you really have to work for. I don't think this is unreasonable. It's nice to help the less fortunate, who may have had civilization in their countries but now have nothing but war, bloodshed, poverty, starvation and suffering, but dammit we've gotta look out for ourselves as well!

 

Actually, I'm surprised (and somewhat disappointed) that LKD managed not to somehow throw in a feminist angle as well.

 

I agree in full. For some reason, charity took the place of common sense and self-preservation on the list of political priorities (this phenomenon occurred sometime post '45, I would guess, and we all know why). I find such hierarchy harmful for the 'benefactors' and handicapping for the 'beneficients'.

 

Maybe I named the thread poorly -- it grew out of the immigration portion of a Whatnots thread, and since it was getting serious I took Tal's advice and moved my discussion about immigration in general to AoLS, as IMHO immigration is a political topic. The German quote started me off, but I'm talking about immigration to Western cultures in general.

Just for you, Splunge, I'll start a thread on where to send the damn feminists later

Oh, crap the computer here at work is so effing weird. I double posted the thread. Mods, please delete with my apologies.

Oh, I used Canada as my reference point because I am most familiar with it, but I think my feeligns reflect the feelings of many in Western Democracies.

 

I always liked LKD. The immigrant of today is not the same as 100 years ago. Without a desire to assimilate and to add to the melting pot of a society, they become a problem. Citizens should never have to deal with being called racists because they are trying to preserve their culture against people they allowed to immigrate.

I'd take it a step farther than LKD and prohibit all public assistance during the probationary period and then still make them prove that they are deserving of being allowed to remain in the country. I would also change the rules about citizenship and require both parents to be citizens before a child automatically becomes a citizen. This way if the adults fail the probationary period they take the kids with them.

 

I like him too. And llike and respect you too, Snook.

However, history is not the strong point for either of you, since that's not true at all. It was WORSE 100 years ago. Why do you think there is a Little Italy in NYC? Or a Chinatown in the largest cities? We have one here. Or German communitiess spaced outside of major cities in the Northeast? It's because they wanted to preserve their respective cultures, and in some cases have been quite successful at it.

How funny is that? I'm thinking of someone out there in media land who has made a skill [for lack of a better term] of knowing next to nothing about an issue, or subject, a virtue. [And it's not the guy on Hogan's Heroes]. But that's besides the point. People eventually do fit in, but in some ways on their own terms. Ah, but the "good old" days....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

 

The issue with me is not the preservation of their native cultures -- I firmly believe that they should be allowed and even encouraged to preserve their way of life. Sure, they enclave up and such, resulting in Chinatowns in every metropolis, Little Italies, and other such areas, but those groups also made an effort to fit in -- they didn't come over and start making demands that the established culture start changing to become like them. Such changes happened, of course, over time, as the established culture took ideas, customs, and especially food from the newcomers.

The changes weren't rammed down our throats by governments using "rights" of immigrants to force changes.

The groups you mentioned tended to keep their heads down and not make too many waves. The exception was, of course, the criminal element, which is why gangs are often made up of ethnic minorities striving to achieve financial success the quick and dirty way. My thought now is that many imigrants are coming here expecting us to support them and kowtow to thembecause they had status in their countries. They look down on us while cheerfully taking our money.

The US and Canada have always had limitations placed on immigrants, and some of them have been mean. But you have to have some limits or you'll be overrun.

 

Some did and some didn't. But this has always been mostly an issue of perception, I think.

There is also a lot of push-back, some people who want to keep America "white." In other words, you can stay as long as you want to be like "we are." I think that's a small minorty, but they are vocal and drive much of the debate. They fear monger the "we are being overrun" mentality. America is a pluralistic society and they will lose in the end, despite short-term success at making it difficult for others to come here, and even remain, once they are here.

 

One thing I will mention is that in theoretical terms the US has an advantage over the Canadians. The US advocates a "melting pot", and the image there is of everyone shedding old identities when they enter -- they blend into a collective whole.

My good friend Pierre Elliot Trudeau came up with a different image to describe Canadian multiculturalism. He referred to it as a cultural mosaic, where there was less shedding and more twisting around for a piece of the mosaic to take its place in the mosaic as a whole. There was less assimilation required, using that image as a guide.

In Canada, it hasn't worked as well as we might have liked. We designed social programs for people to contribute to through working and then access when necessary. These programs, however, are now being accessed by more and more people who never have contributed to them and likely never will. These immigrants who do this come here with an incredible sense of entitlement -- I know, I teach many of them. They don't want to work, they want to have children to get more government money. This isn't my fantasy, I've heard them say it. They expect working Canadians to provide them with the same standard of living that we have, and in some cases a better standard of living, all the while accusing us of being racists if we would rather keep the fruits of our labours to improve our own standards of living.

And don't get me started on the illegal immigrants -- they can dance around all they like, the fact is that by coming to a country without going through that country's legal system, they are criminals, plain and simple.

 

People wearing the clothes they choose to is not acceptable in an open and free society? Wow, the needle on my irony metre just broke off.

I agree 100% with everything else you said, though.

 

My point is that in a free and open society, we need to both be able to see the faces of those with whom we are interacting in public, and also that women need to feel free to expose their faces without fear of being attacked or mutilated. The Sharia law to which I am referring is not Koranic, and is merely a tool to subjugate women. They've done a good job of it, too, they've made it sink down right into the consciousness of the women themselves. Orwell had it right on the money.

 

I would like to ask you a swift question LKD; are you saying:
1) People should not be allowed to wear full face coverings when exchanging or purchasing a service
or
2) People should not be allowed to wear full face coverings in public ever

Proposition one is reasonable, two is not. [Think ski masks when it's really cold; no harm comes from that. Nor would any come from a woman, willingly, walking down the street wearing a full face covering]

 

Wait... in an open and free society, one can't choose to wear a full face covering? What about women who actually want to wear one?

 

I largely agree with Chandos, with a little to add. My knowledge of immigrant history is far from 100%, but it seems to me that most, if not all, immigrant groups go through such a period of insular activity, often associated with racist attitudes on both sides, and often leading to general unrest and violence. Chinese, Irish, Germans, Italians, and more groups have gone through a similar pattern, with their own culture clashing with the promenant American culture at the time. During this clash, members of the immigrant culture often turn to more extreme aspects of their culture in an effort to maintain their cultural identity. Afterward, and truely even during, the result is a gradual and piecewise acceptance of the new culture. In part, this is the cause of more unrest and violence, but it is also the ultimate key to the integration of the immigrant society.

I think the problem with this process in Europe today is merely numbers. The host society is becoming overwhelmed, or at least feels it (though this may not be unusual, it is at least more widespread thanks to modern mass-communications). Couple that with a modern Western society that feels violence of any kind is no longer acceptable, especially violence against anyone historically oppressed, and an immigrant society who, among their more radical traditions, oppress women within their family units (honor killings and such). The 'culture clash' phenomenon is no longer considered acceptable (if it ever really was).

Ultimately, though, I think the Middle Eastern culture is just going through the same process as other groups have in the past, though I don't know how much Europe ever had to deal with this, as most of the groups are European natives. Did Europe ever see any sizable Chinese or Indian immigration? Anyway, I expect in 50 years Middle Eastern or Arabic (or whatever the PC term is) will have a history in the US and other nations similar to other immigrants. I hope we all know the history of Irish, Italian, Latino, and Chinese gangs in major cities, as well as the rampant and widespread racism against Germans, Catholics, and other groups. Yet today, most of those groups are non-issues. Who here can think of a case of racism against an Irish in the US in recent memory? In the US, as far as I can tell, an Irish person is, at worst, a matter of curious heritage. There are Germans everywhere if you bother to ask. Most Chinese are accepted as members of society today. Latinos continue to experience problems becase they continue to immigrate in large numbers. They appear to have entered a process of continual integration. THAT is problematic and needs to be addressed, though I don't know how. Arabic immigration is just growing pains.

 

A couple of things:

1: Rahkir, I am primarily with #1 -- ski masks are popular here, but it is considered courteous, and in some cases required, to remove the damn thing when you enter a store, bank, or other such place. Of course, not always.

2: I believe that modern immigration differs from previous waves in volume and the expectations of the immigrants. In addition, I don't see Arabic immigration as the issue, but the immigration of uneducated people from the Horn of Africa. We simply don't have the menial jobs available for them anymore, and we don't have the money to educate them, especially since some of them have no interest in being educated -- they merely want to get government money. This has nothing to do with skin color. It is about cultural compatibility and mutual respect. I proffer respect to everyone automatically, but lose it when they make it clear they do not reciprocate. Such is the case here.

 

and

[Note: quotes come from different posts]

LKD,

I must lead a very sheltered life. While I have seen immigrant families come here and go on welfare, even though they haven't paid into the system, I have never experienced an immigrant asking/telling me to become "more like them". I also have never met an immigrant who expected me to kowtow to them. I have no idea what you mean by "because they had status in their countries". If things were so good for them there, why did they leave?

But the comment I take most exception with is that they should "show some friggin' gratitude". My grandparents were immigrants, and so were my wife's grandparents. They worked in coal mines, steel mills, construction, even garbage collection. Without exception, they felt they didn't owe anyone a god damn thing for what they had. Without exception, if you told them you expected them to show some friggin' gratitude, they would tell you to take that expectation, turn it sideways, and shove it directly up your ass.

 

That's the difference between immigrants of your era and the modern ones I am refering to. I am referring to the ones who are not working in mines, factories, or other such jobs. They come here and get onto social programs, receiving money from the government and giving nothing in return. In my particular experience, the government pays them living expenses to learn English. Tis particular subset of immigrants does little but complain ("I have 6 children, the government needs to give me more!") and they don't go out and get some part time employment. More than that, they really don't put much effort into learning English, they just ***** about how hard it is. After 30 months, I've seen people yet to get past our 2nd level of instruction. I know learning English isn't the easiest thing in the world, but I am smart enough to tell the difference between people who are truly struggling with the language and people who simply do not give a damn about the whole deal and are not even trying.

Many of these people come from war torn countries, and I am not without sympathy for their plight. But the thing is, we allowed them to come here. For that thing alone, they should be grateful to the country that has given them shelter from rape, murder, persecution, and torture. But they aren't. They try to get Sharia law imposed in civil courts. They yap about their religious rights and push their religion down people's throats far more than any bible thumper would ever dare. And we tolerate it, and even encourage them as they take our money and turn around and criticize us for it.

Now don't get me wrong. I think I've spoken before about the immigrants who bust hump here. One fellow in particular stands out in my mind. He's Egyptian, high status in his country, a university trained veterinarian. He came to my school, busted his donkey learning English, and took a part time job at freaking Wendy's to support his family. Working at Wendys wasn't beneath him -- when he needed more money, he didn't go to the government with his hand out, saying that we were racist if we didn't hand more and more money over to to him, he went and got a job. He just passed the English equivalency course for veterinary medicine and is on track to being a vet here in Canada. He is the type of immigrant who the West needs, and like your family, Aldeth, he worked for it instead of whining about how the government is racist for not providing 5 bedroom houses to him so he could stay home and spend unearned taxpayer money. Like your family, he need only be grateful to himself, but the funny thing is . . . he frequently expresses his gratitude to Canada for giving him a chance to come here.

So who do I respect? The freeloader losers who come here with superiority complexes, a line of crap about how important their religion is to them, and a willingness to lie, cheat, and steal (despite the whole religious thing)? Or the guy who works his donkey off to make it in the country and succeeds, showing gratitude for the country that took him in? The answer is self evident.

 

Yes, and they consistently fail, and lament that 'injustice' greatly. So what?

I don't see a particular difference in the conduct of both sorts of people. They're not all that far apart. Indeed, at the UN (iirc at ECOSOC) on social matters the US representatives from the Christian Right (appointed by Bush) voted routinely with the delegates from fundamentalist Muslim countries on social matters. Instructive.

US Christian right folks routinely and (ridiculously) cry bloody persecution about their children having to endure the lack of mandatory school prayer, Darwinism, sex education in school, mixed sports, immodest clothing and other vile liberal indoctrination.

Being such a pestilence has probably everything to do with being a Fundamentalist rather than with the actual flavour of what these people are being so Fundamentalist about.

I know a couple of teachers and they all agree that the only parents who predictably and reliably cause them trouble over stuff like that are either fundamentalist Christians or Muslim. For instance Fundamentalist Muslim parents go to great lengths to keep their girls out of coed sports - and fail and fail again in trying to achieve this. And then, I know a lot of very integrated and well educated Muslim Turkish-Germans, who have no interest in Sharia law, head scarves and veils at all. They're middle class.

The point to be made is that this is in my view about education and wealth (which correspond) and social class. The Turks who came to Germany to work here are almost universally from rural areas, and they were often ill educated and they were doing menial tasks here. They were coming here for economic reasons; Turks that did well had no reason to leave Turkey. As they acquire wealth they invest that in better education for their children - they go middle class. There is another point to be made about identity that I will address in a later post, that will also elaborate on my dismay about Merkel's statement.

Whether we speak about American fundamentalist Christian Reconstructionists of the Rushdoony school, striving to implement Biblical law (with death penalty for sinners (i.e. stoning) and all) in the US, or fundamentalist Muslims trying to implement Sharia - that's just a question of tone. The theocratic attitude is identical, irrespective of the respective faith.

The problem I see is that people, under the banner of misunderstood tolerance towards religion, don't dare speak out against such absolute claims to authority that, as they must, collide with the constitutional order. Only because it's religion, it isn't legitimate. Only because exercise and expression of religion is free, that does not mean that it isn't unlimited (it is, by the equally strong, competing rights of other right holders i.e. no exercise at the expense of other people's freedom). To be legitimate it needs to be reconcilable with the constitutional order. If religion isn't, it must not be tolerated.

Rushdoony's reconstructionism that wants to impose Biblical law cannot be reconciled with the constitutional order. The same applies to Sharia law. That's why that neo-con trope 'Europe is under the yoke of Sharia law' is not only factually incorrect, to put it mildly, but also exceedingly ridiculous.

 

Ragusa, here in Canada they are succeeding from time to time.

hate the author if you rwill -- you'll have a lot of company -- but this is where the problem is and it has nothing to do with who wrote it:

This is complete and utter BS. If anyone else asked for this -- or demanded it -- it wouldn't happen. But God Forbid we should do anything to offend the Muslims!

I can see testifying behind a screen -- that's been done -- but clearing the courtroom of all males? Utterly retarded.