Freedom Flotilla hijacked

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such an ugly phrase to describe something which happens every day... I believe that the UN calls it "economic sanctions"

you mean the way you put an evil spin on everything Israel does?

yes... its working better then the US's invasion of Afghanistan in response to Al Qaeda.

we are on the 17th page of this debate, your information has not been discounted the way you said above, it has been argued and debated over and over again.

these are oxygen generators (and portable ones at that), they compress oxygen from the air around them, very useful from a terrorist point of view.

 

A UN watchdog took the UN to task for it's one sided response to all things Israeli. I think the criticisms can be just as easily levied against the world. The article (which admittedly didn't have the entire text) is here.

I wish to excerpt a portion of it.

Spoiler

“In Article 1 of the Vienna Declaration (and Program of Action), the states assembled here committed to protect all human rights. Is the Council living up to this obligation? Focusing thematically on the right to life, let us consider one example from each of the past 12 months:

• June 2009: Tehran. Hundreds of thousands gather peacefully to protest a questionable election. The government responds with brutality. Dozens are killed, hundreds injured, thousands arrested.

• July: China. Troops fire on Uighur protesters; 200 killed, 1,700 injured.

• August: Russia. Two aid workers killed in Chechnya, government complicity suspected.

• September: Yemen. Government warplanes bomb a refugee camp, killing 80. This council’s response? Silence.

• October: Iraq. A terrorist attacks a mosque, killing the imam and 14 others.

• November: The Philippines. Massacre of 57 opposition activists.

• December : Iran. Renewed protests meet with bullets, beatings, arrests; 10 killed.

• January: Pakistan. In 42 attacks, 182 civilians killed. Council’s response? Silence.

• February: Afghanistan. A Taliban attack kills 18, injuring 32, including doctors.

• March: Nigeria. Five hundred Christians slaughtered in religious killings.

• April: Kyrgyzstan. Troops fire on demonstrators; 84 killed.

• May: Libya executes 18 foreigners, without due process.

“Mr. President, faced with these and other gross violations of the Vienna Declaration, what was this council’s standard response? Silence. No resolutions; no urgent sessions; no investigations. Nothing.

“Yet ... when Israel defended itself against violent Jihadists on the so-called humanitarian flotilla, we witnessed another standard — a double-standard.

“Suddenly the council sprang into action, with an urgent debate, a resolution condemning Israel, and yet another investigation where the guilty verdict was declared in advance. Meanwhile, in this session, not a single resolution has been adopted for 191 other countries.

“Is the right to life, as guaranteed under the Vienna Declaration, being protected? No — on the contrary. And millions of victims are paying the price.”

Does anyone here seriously think Israel, comparatively speaking, deserves all of the resolutions that it has receieved when weighed against the crap being pulled by many of the countries pushing for such resolutions? Talk about delusional.

I'm gonna use UFC imagery. Groin shots are prohibited. Yet what I see is the opponent frequently and repeatedly using groin shots. Then, when Israel gets tired of the one-sidedness and does a groin shot of its own, everyone cries out for blood. Now two wrongs don't make a right and all of that stuff, but the credibility of the people who condone such behaviour (or turn a blind eye to it, or make excuses for it, or whatever) who then try to impose the full weight of the law on Israel, well, that credibility is seriously weakened.

I mean, in terms of magnitude and frequency, there's a lot of severely worse situations going on around the world. I am lead to question why Israel is constantly the focus of such criticism. One possible suggestion is the existance of OIC, the voting bloc of Islamic states that manages to push through all sorts of nonsense at the UN. One thing you can say about those guys is that they have really good PR spin doctors going. As of this writing, I am unaware of any other voting bloc whose existance is primarily based around a religion. But you can imagine the howls of "Eurocentrism!" "Religious bigotry" and such (likely from OIC members themselves) were there to be an explicitly Christian voting bloc of countries, or a Judaic / Hebrew bloc (I can see the OIC and their ilk bringing out those BS old Russian documents about the Elders of Zion or whatever).

To go to medical imagery, in triage, you assess the severity of injuries and prioritize where you will put your resources, giving attention to the most dire situations first. I humbly argue that Israel's sins, existent as they may be, should realistically be far, far down the list.

 

To be fair : Yes groin shots are prohibited in the UFC. And yes, it happens that an opponent gets kicked in the groin. Whether it's intentional or not it open to debate. However, when there's a groin shot, the ref stops the match and gives a maximum of 5 minutes recovery to the guy who got hit in the groin. If it happens again, the hitter gets a point deducted (and yes, that's important). And if the hittee cannot continue because of that illegal shot, the hitter losses the match.

Just sayin'... While I understan your point, your analogy wasn't correct.

 

Le sigh. I know how it happens in the UFC -- what I am saying is that in this instance, internationally speaking, flagrant groin shots are occurring without any referee comment, stoppage, or point removal. Yet when one particular fighter does one, HE is crucified. A rule that is applied to only one fighter isn't much of a <snipping> rule. If the UFC operated this way, it would lose all frigging credibility.

 

IMHO, Israel is held to a higher standard because of its democratically elected government. It's not a theocracy like so many of the Middle East nations. That doesn't mean that what a lot of these other countries do is "OK", but rather that more is expected from Israel, which, in addition to its government is also due to their military superiority in the region.

 

It's still unjust, no matter how you cut it -- Israel's track record is far from clean, no doubt about it, but it's a darn sight prettier than those of it's most vehement opponents, yet many in the West seems to constantly gloss over the human rights abuses of those guys. To paraphrase from the Bible, these people are "straining at gnats and swallowing camels."

 

Well, I did start with "IMHO" for a reason. I also think it is held to a higher standard because the US has Israel's back, and therefore they are operating from a position of strength.

 

Many Americans are quite proud of our support for Israel, support which is viewed as largely one-sided in the region. And why don't you go back and look at how many times the US has voted to block those so-called "anti-semitic" resolutions that UN Watch has been carping about in the UN? Neverthelss, UN Watch has been accused of being an "Israeli lobby group." Personally, I don't know enough about them to comment either way. But all this talk about "Israel, alone, against the rest of the world" is a load of BS. America has 60 years of policy that says otherwise, policy which many of us are very proud of, btw.

 

Snook,
I don't feel slighted when people don't appreciate my 'research'. Usually I would call research putting together things that are difficult to find. Not so here. This is basic. The point is not the hurtful lack of appreciation for my efforts - by now I am used to that - but how people manage to completely blend out basic and verifiable facts that they don't want to hear, as indicated by replies like that, and how they can possibly reconcile that with their intellectual honesty.

Shoshino,
how would a terrorist abuse such an oxygen generator for nefarious purposes. Concretely. Make an example. Take advantage of your rich fantasy life and share. How? To get high? That's iirc what paramedics abuse them for.

If one ignores for a second the apparently prevalent conviction that Palestinians are murderous thugs who can't be trusted and that they of course will abuse the generators for their nefarious purposes - if we leave all that aside - why might a hospital in Gaza need such equipment? Put on your thinking hat, if that helps.

The machines are iirc a solution to the problems Gaza hospitals faced over their oxygen resupply being blocked by the Israelis for secret 'security reasons' and alleged dual use qualities. People needlessly died. Having these devices means a Gaza hospital wouldn't be dependent on Israeli whims when they decide when to schedule critical operations based on the available (or currently unavailable) oxygen supply. They could used them when they are needed as opposed to when they are supplied. But of course, that's all a pretext, right?

 

thank you

 

Have to watch those brownies and Twinkies.

 

Oxygen is also great for keeping critically ill and critically injured people from ... dying ... and the Palestinians aren't having difficulty coming by weapons with which to attack Israel as it is. Seriously, people in Palestine are needlessly dying because they lack proper food, proper building materials, and proper medical equipment. Despite this, and despite the fact that this state of affairs has existed for years, the Palestinians are still having no trouble coming by the resources necessary to terrorize the nation of Israel.

Allowing the Palestinians access to adequate food, adequate medical care, and adequate building materials isn't going to make things any "worse" for Israel, but continuing to maintain such capricious policies can and does ensure that young Palestinians will grow up to blame Israel for their plight. It sows the very seeds that ensure the continued viability of hard-line anti-Israeli organizations like Hamas.

 

I believe some of us were amazed at the reverse.

 

Even I have a hard time denying oxygen to hospitals. Of course, getting a guarantee that it's actually going to the hospitals would likely be in order.

Chandos, I know that the US government's foreign policy has always backed Israel up. Of that there is no doubt. I am less sure of the policy of my own country's government, though I don't think they have ever really acted as anything other than an ally. The same is true, I believe, of England.

I refer to individuals, and there are plenty of individuals (some of them even high ranking journalists, as was seen recently) in the Western democracies who are . . . significantly less supportive of Israel. I believe that some of them are naive and believe that if the Israeli's just take unilateral steps their enemies will lay down their arms and they'll all start singing showtunes together. Some of them, though, are a little more nefarious -- we've got lotsa homegrown Holocaust deniers right here in my own backyard.

 

Sometimes, even now, journalists try to examine both sides of an issue. While I admit it is rare, nevertheless they will sometimes draw different conclusions than their "official" government policies when they do. Many journalists are spending more time in the Muslim countries of the ME and are gaining a different perspective. I'm not saying I agree with their conclusions completely, only that journalists are spending more time talking to Muslims and not necessarily going along with the notion that all Muslims are terrorits who are out to destroy the rest of the world.

The fact is Muslims have their side of the story, which they want to tell. The interesting thing is that Christians who live in the ME have a story to tell but no one will listen. I remember talking with two young guys whom I mistook as Muslims because they were Arabs. They explained that they were not Muslims but Christians and left the ME because they were disliked by both Muslims and Jewish people in the ME, so they came to the US. And they said that as soon as people here discover they are Christians, they are delighted. The reason I mention it, is because it really brought home to me just how divided the region really is.

 

BTA,
oxygen as it comes from such a machine can be used in a lab, yes. My point was that it is preposterous to claim that the Palestinians will abuse the machines, considering the legitimate purposes, based on dual use qualities. A pencil has dual use qualities since I could stick it in your eye, so let's ban pencils. Paper could be used to scribble a plan for the destruction of civilisation as we know it on, so let's ban paper. If I put my mind to it, and Israel does just that, I can find plenty of dual use qualities in things you use and need everyday and block them. And of course, it will be always be all about security.

I would say the risk of abuse is actually very low here, since probably the machines are far more useful in a hospital than in a lab. Hint: Hamas fighters and their relatives may end up in hospital in critical condition, too. To put it this way: Israel's inclination to routinely use her military machines on Gaza, as demonstrated by the death toll they inflicted in their last offensive and subsequent air strikes, generates a clear disincentive for the people of Gaza to use these oxygen machines for other than medical purposes.

And even if it wasn't for that, there are other ways to ensure that Israel is safe from the abuse of oxygen machines. There are international medical experts in Gaza routinely. They could check on the machines unannounced and see if they are used as intended, in fact they routinely check hospital inventories already, it would be just one more list item. But no, there is plenty of benefit of a doubt for Israel's decisions, zero of that for the people in Gaza. Israel's decision to not allow the oxygen machines at all is not the only way for Israel to be safe, but it is for sure the one most hurtful for the Palestinians. Which, it appears, is the point. As I said, the policy of strangulation, with cosmetic adjustments, continues. Of course all that matters little for people who supported it before that.

 

First off, I want to appologize for my comment earlier. It was poorly worded and didn't convey what I intended. I only intended to mean that I thought Ragusa was stretching logic in favor of one side. That's obviously not the meaning I conveyed, however.

Which kind of makes you wonder why they're having so much trouble coming by oxygen, doesn't it?

And rifles can be used to hunt game. Shot guns can be used to hunt fowl. Do you suggest allowing those things in as well? I'd agree that paper, unless someone's gotten really creative with it, is too far. Oxygen generators, however, are not.

Given my response to Drew's comment, I don't think I have any problem assuming Hamas would use the generators for violence before they would use them for medicine.

Right, because the international experts have been sooo useful keeping Iran in check. Remember, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. Especially if you're asking the UN, it seems.

As for the whole collective punishment theme, I again cite war as a whole. Do you think our offensives in Iraq and Afghanastan didn't collectively punish those people as a whole? Do you think the carpet bombing in WWII didn't hurt the French as much as the occupying German troops? Was Agent Orange only harmful to plants that the Viet Cong used? The fact of the matter is that war has collatoral damage. If Israel wanted to wipe Gaza off the face of the map, they could. They could probably even do it in such a way as to minimize international reaction (get some higher-up to 'go rogue' and then fall on his sword). They haven't. You seem to want a 'clean war', Ragusa. Such a thing doesn't exist.

 

Not at all. They aren't manufacturing weapons in Gaza. They can't, since they lack even the basic building materials to create a suitable facility for such a thing. What weapons they do have have tend to be improvised (and dependent on a "human delivery system") or scavenged. The weapons they've been using are, to put it kindly, crude and outdated, so Israel can't just choke Palestine out of its "weapons". Palestine has been working with next to nothing for more than a decade, yet they still find ways to attack Israel. This state of affairs cannot be changed using the means Israel currently employs.