Freedom Flotilla hijacked

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That's where I don't agree. Yes, it was a PR thing but you keep saying it was to make the israelli look bad. It had three goals : Try to bring supplies to Gaza, protests against an unjust situation in their eyes and bring more international attention to the situation. While I'm convinced a few people on board the boats wanted a lot more than protest (and there were probably a couple commandoes that wanted more than peaceful resolution to the conflict) like in any protests, the vast majority of people were going there to peacefully break (or help) an unjust situation in their eyes. Like the guy in Tiananmen square. Yes, you are right that some of the goods they brought would have made it sooner to Gaza, the point of the flotilla was to help put an end to the blockade by putting on a high profile event so that all future goods would go in immediately.

 

I have seen most everyone concede that it was a PR stunt, but my take on it is this: Many people believe that it is a stunt meant to highlight the suffering of the Palestinians, which makes it a Good stunt. I contend that it is a stunt meant to smear Israel, and that the people masterminding it don't really give a flying <snip> at a rolling donut about the welfare of the Palestinians. Some of the protesters on the boat may be well meaning dupes, but the people pulling the strings are all about sticking it to Israel, not about helping the impoverished. It is their attempts to pain themselves as "noble humanitarians" that really gets my back up. They aren't, not by a long shot.

And neither are the Israelis. But I see the Israelis as being stuck between a rock and a hard place -- if they play nice and turn the other cheek, they get killed. If they defend themselves, they are horrible people. I would rather be seen as horrible by people who live thousands of miles away than be dead. I'm sure I'm not alone in that thought.

Edit: Triactus, you must have posted at the same time as me, this was written before you posted.

 

Sometimes, it's your own fault you're in a hard spot...

But I also don't believe that Israel is chaotic evil. It's not israelli citizens that are firing rockets on civilians or blowing themselves up in public places. But you could also say that these terrorist acts are retaliatory. Hence, this is not a black and white situation.

As for the Flotilla, it was announced that the investigation team will have two or three international observers with them (one being canadian... ). Israel also reduced the blockade. You could say that the PR stunt worked.

Too slow, grand dad...

 

I heard it would be either Bob or Doug McKenzie...

 

hun?

No, it's general Ken Watkin of the Canadian army.

EDIT : oh... I googled the McKenzies... I never watched SCTV, so I didn't know them... To me, Bob McKenzie is a sports columnist...

 

They're also allowing foodstuffs in that were previously banned, and are moving to allow internationally organized building projects (including cement and rebar) so long as the building is supervised. The blockade and seige are still in tact, though. Hamas apparently protested this, demanding that the whole blockade be lifted or none of it.

 

Chandos,
sleep easy: Iran will not be sending a blockade-busting ship to Gaza. As I said, just talk.

You people kid yourself about the nature of Israel's blockade. The Gaza blockade isn't about security:

For those who are slow to understand: Hamas is still in power, and as long as they are Israel is not going to lift their blockade, no matter whether Hamas shells Israel or not.

For illustration, some recent comments by Chuck Schumer, a pro-Israel hawk if there ever was one, and apparently a fan of the blockade, to the same end:

It is collective punishment and everybody knows it, except you pro-Israel Pollyannas.

It is not about safety, but about making the life in Gaza so miserable that the people there rise up against Hamas i.e. it is about regime change, not about preventing the flow of weapons. That didn't work in a decade with Iraq. If it was about the flow of weapons the Israelis wouldn't bother blocking coriander, canned fruit, fruit juice, jam, chocolate ... Let's keep in mind that an established policy of economic warfare isn't exactly peaceful. For perspective, between nation states, a blockade is an act of war.

So it is a collective punishment of the people of Gaza, for having voted Hamas into office. If you find that legitimate, step back and think since the argument has a wide field of application: What do you think Al Qaeda crashing planes into the twin towers on 9/11 was about? Collective punishment for the American people for the foreign policy enacted by their elected representatives. If you approve of the former you have to approve of the latter as well. I somehow doubt that. Anyway, if you wonder why Gazans might support Hamas, think about why Americans have a dislike for Al Qaeda.

And from what it looks like, despite the talk the Israelis don't walk the walk.

Thinking of it, there is a chance that the people of Gaza might use pencils to stab Israeli soldiers, and we all know how dangerous stab wounds are. Israel's confiscation is certainly making sure that the oxygen machines are not being used for medical purposes. Anyway, what this means is that Israel is still determined to continue the blockade while making some cosmetic adjustments i.e. they put lipstick on a pig.

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Ain't she a beauty?

 

I guess we know who's chicken in that group. I honestly didn't expect Iran to even offer the bluff, though, all things concidered.

You're the one who's kidding yourself if you don't think acts of war, durring a war (and this effectively is one) are about security. Sure, this is about economic warfare... as a method of ensuring Israeli security from Hamas terrorist attacks.

Again, of course it's collective punishment, but only because the Hamas militants collect around innocent civilians. Any move Israel took against them would be. This is just the least lethal of their options. And no, removing the blockade all-together isn't a real option.

Comparing US policies of economic activity and, at worst, backing one group in a dispute against another, to Hamas's 'policies' of suicide bombing, rocket attacks on schools, and bloody coups is about as distasteful as I can remember you ever getting, Ragusa. This isn't about 'policy', it's about 'war'.

Oh, come on! You're wondering why Israel may object to handing a machine for the concentration of oxygen over to a terrorist organization dedicated to their destruction? Ok, the chocolate was odd, but this is just plain smart. Remember that guy in Canada that just got arrested with a car full of gas tanks? How differently do you think people would have reacted if they were tanks full of compressed O2? Not at all? Just as deadly? Probably an even larger possible explosion?

Ragusa, I hate to say it, but at this point you're objections to Israel's activities really are taking on the colors of anti-semitism and pro-Hamas movements. I'm not accusing you of being one, just saying you're starting to sound like they do.

 

Oh thank you for the anti-semite. What will you call me next? A Nazi? Hitler? Something even more hysterical?

The oxygen machines are standard medical equipment for hospital, essential to keep alive patients in critical condition. Period. That doesn't matter ... because they could be used for terrorist purposes?

NOG, I'll tell you something, these putatives are a tricky thing, and, I really hate to say it, but, alas, circumstances force my hand: You could be a smart guy even though you keep writing all this nonsense. But since all I get is your posts, how will I ever know?

 

...The "argument" of last resort....

 

Just so you know, I didn't see your post, Tal. I was away from the computer, then came back and posted, and then saw yours. If you don't like my post you can just delete it. It doesn't matter to me.

 

It's funny, most people know me a a pretty negative guy, so being called a "Pollyana" is something new to me!

Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel -- that's not really up for debate. So I just can't get too wound up when Israel takes steps against them. Until Hamas starts being a reasonable group of individuals, the steps that Israel is going to have to take are going to be problematic, to say the least. If Hamas really wanted to help the people of Gaza, they would stoip being such <snips>. But they don't give a hoot about the lives of the Gaza population -- all they cazre about is damaging Israel. I would counter, then, that it's the pro-Hamas side that is somewhat Pollyana-ish in their belief that if Israel plays by the rules, Hamas will miraculously stop being a terrorist group and will cooperate with the Israelis in building a brighter tomorrow. Hamas sure as <snip> doesn't play by the rules.

 

It seems that both sides are dedicated to the destruction of each other -- just sayin'.

 

I don't think so, Chandos. If Hamas foreswore terrorist activities and focussed on really helping the Palestinians rather than attacking Israel, I don't think Israel would spend as much energy attacking them. But with Hamas consistently statiing their desire to kill Israelis and destroy the State of Israel, well, what would a reasonable person do?

 

Obviously so. If either side gave up the "cause," the other would probably do the same. The real enemy is Iran, or more precisely, the Iranain government, and not just towards Isarael (my respect for the Iranian people, increased a lot after the demonstrations). Bush & Cheney attacked the wrong country (go figure ) -- Wait and see.

 

LKD,
Polyanna as in: At every turn Pollyanna found some dark life to brighten... - here concretely: 'Putting a positive spin on what Israel does' as in cheerfully assuming that - whatever they do and how ugly it may look - they certainly have a good reason. That generous view is unjustified. Israel is perfectly capable of doing very bad and very stupid things, including the blockade on Gaza - for less than noble or smart motives - and those who just take Israel's side like to ignore that. In a sense, that's very Polyanna-ish thing to do.

The content of that internal Israel document is explicit. What Schumer said cannot possibly be misunderstood. If you care to look, you'll easily find Israeli declarations to the end that they will continue and strengthen the blockade, while making it look better. The Israelis are actually very chatty about all that.

And there is no way around acknowledging that economic warfare via a blockade amounts to a collective punishment of everyone caught in Gaza, and as such that is trampling the principle of individual responsibility. Whether or not you did something against Israel, you get hit. The blockade per se maximises the number of affected bystanders, in fact, that's the very point. Schumer approvingly described the effect as 'strangling Gaza' short of hunger. That is a very violent metaphor. But hey, all that is fully justified because Hamas ... exists.

But let's move on quickly before foul doubt can cloud our sunny minds! These disconcerting facts are just what Israel and pro-Israelis say! They act (ask Schumer: strangle?) nobly! After all, there must be a sensible reason for what they do! Look: There's an official announcement ... ... and the really hardcore people even get their talking points per e-mail, so they can copy-paste.

It is in light of that almost, only almost, hilarious that there are people (and I explicitly exclude you, LKD) who are intellectually capable to discount all that information and reply something along the line: Gee, when Ragusa says all these bad things about Israel that I don't like to hear, the only explanation my brain can process is that Ragusa must have a deep hatred for Jews ... I myself, I almost got a brain haemorrhage trying to reproduce the probable line of ... thought.

 

"Cloud our sunny minds!" You kill me, Ragusa, you truly do. Your points are well taken. Sadly, I have no time to fully respond to this at the moment, but I wanted to just put something in here and let all you folks know that there will be another LKD post on this topic very soon.

 

Wow, that is quite insulting to the people you aimed it at, especially for someone who seemed so upset by the implication that you may be sounding anti-semitic. I would almost go so far to call it a personal attack.

In response, I think you do not understand why so many people are intellectually capable of discounting all of your research. In my case it is because I agree with what the Israelis are doing and it makes a lot of sense to me. I'll keep it simple

1. The people in Gaza elected Hamas. I think most reasonable people will agree that Hamas is an organization whose purpose is to eliminate Israel.
2. Israel has a vested interest in not having Hamas rule Gaza

For all of your research into Israeli government documents, is there any doubt that if a Pro-Israel government was put in place of Gaza and said government was able to stop the rocket attacks in to Israel that the blockade would come to an end? It isn't like the people in Gaza don't understand this, or if they don't then in my opinion they are pretty stupid.

While the blockade may not be 100% effective, in the eyes of the Isreal government (and mine) it has been somewhat effective and is clearly a better alternative then a genocidal war.