Persecuted Germans find political asylum in the US

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Shaman, a fear of something that really exists and threatens you is still a fear, and a well-founded one at that.

All-in-all, though, I think people talking about homeschooling for religious purposes should be willing to consider 'supplimental home schooling' instead, meaning sitting down with your kid at the end of the day and talking about what he/she learned, adding things you think are important but were left out, correcting implications that were made or ideological claims that were presented and you disagree with, etc. The parent should have that kind of power over the child that they'd believe you and accept your word, at least until the teens, and if you don't have that power, you should really re-consider what kind of parent you are.

That being said, I can understand cursing public schooling on a basis of quality.

 

It is probably worse than you think. I am catholic, which conflicts with the assertion of me being either anti-religious, or an atheist or a rabid leftist, but never mind. To me personally being called a left winger is entertaining, so keep going.

Well thank you, glad to see you have a sense of humour, though I am not entirely sure you're aware that joke was on you.

Perceived persecution where there actually is none is often considered a symptom of nuttiness, speaking of which ...

The most objections to your posts have from my vantage point usually nothing to do with you being an aggressive conservative poster being relentlessly hounded by the intolerant left of SP and everything to do with the poster of ridiculous claims being ridiculed for his ridiculous claims.

Enforced conformity in German schools? We aren't even singing the national anthem in school any more, since the Allies demanded we drop that after WW-II. Would that be a criterion, it can be argued that schools in the US with the pledge of allegiance enforce conformity to a far greater extent. Generally, there is a difference between 'enforcing conformity' and ensuring that a common standard is maintained. And so forth ... to make it short - there is very little basis in reality for your hyperventilating.

 

That's a quote I'm gonna use -- frequently -- in the future. Very eloquent, Ragusa. As an educator who is constantly hearing people whine about how schools are oppressive and other such horse<bleep!> I often have trouble getting this idea throught the thick heads of histrionic psychos from both political wings.

 

I'm not sure if the police calling you if there is a complaing qualifies as "persecution," though. Even if it does, it's a fear that many people have when they disregard the law.

I guess it boils down to this - what do you think of the German law against homeschooling. I am personally ok as long as some choice in schools exists; I am not really troubled by it. If you are worried that your kids are not learning what they should, help them or change the school; the state (imo) has a right to demand that all kids who finish school (whatever it is) should have a comparable basic skill set. At any rate, calling for an asylum because you don't like history books or literature class books mentioning witches (do they?) strikes me as BS, epecially as there are schools who focus more on religion.

 

Shaman, I agree with most of your post on home schooling, except that I see home schooling as a perfectly legitimate form of education, provided that the government ensures those standards are met. I think banning it as a whole is over the top and likely to cause problems (exactly like this as well as others).

 

NOG, I think schools are, by and large, more efficient in teaching kids the basics; usually the argument for homeschooling being superior is that parents can teach things not covered in the curriculum. In such cases, though, you can simply teach your kid after classes, or petition the school to include certain matter in the curriculum. You don't have to teach the child everything, just what the regular school does not cover. It does take a little more of your time, but that's the problem with homeschooling - you need to spend some of your time to teach at home. It is not a perfect system if you are dead-set against actual schools, but it is imo workable in most cases.

In that particular case, I am somewhat incensed by what I perceive as attention-seeking and abusing the idea of asylum - perhaps less by the couple themselves than by their "well-wishers." The couple's main problem - as I see it - is that they considered the regular curriculum insufficient for their religious beliefs. I am not sure exactly what there was in the curriculum that offended them so; maybe that particular school really put something unsuitable in the curriculum. Still, given that there were schools where Christian beliefs were stressed more, I think they blew their discontent way out of proportion.

For me that is like if they had asked for and granted asylum on account of the school not teaching enough biology and thus hampering the kid's intelligence, or its curriculum not being sufficienty in line with their Buddhist, Sikh, Islamic or whatever beliefs, or not liking that school's dress code, or not thinking political party X is represented properly. Sorry, the world doesn't revolve just around you and your wants - they have to be balanced against those of the rest of us. Sometimes, that involves making a modicum of compromise.

 

You're kidding, right? Maybe the schools in Bulgaria are much better than in the US, but in most places in the US the schools are terrible. They teach to the slowest person in a class too large for one teacher, often with sub-par materials and sometimes with people (students or teachers) making a huge fuss or even threatening them if they don't pass a student.

Here's my experience:
After we moved down here, I went to 4th grade in a private Christian school. Our classes were so small that they fused 4th and 5th grade math (it was the same stuff, just done over). For 5th grade, I went to public school, and 6th grade was public in a special program for gifted students (focused on math and science). 4th grade private math was about on part with 6th grade public gifted math (pre-algebra). I knew a kid who was home-schooled at the same time (parents were both quite smart) and he was doing algebra when I was in 4th grade (he was my age). Homeschooling can talor the educational needs, tools, and speed to individuals, while public can't. Even private is limited in this respect.

It may have also been a tool to hasten the process or remove some red-tape. It smells fishy, but that's no guarantee of anything.

 

"Europeon"? Is that a neologism based on the word "European" and the word "peon"?

By the way, is "lefty" or "leftist" such a bad word in the States? I'm asking rather candidly. Although it was really bad in the past (Reds under the beds and all that) I would assume that with the end of the Cold War opinions might have changed in the US.

Not even close Ragusa. Try to top that: I'm not even a Catholic (still, I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist), I have multiethnic origins, I'm French and I have no qualms about voting for the French Socialist Party... Last but not least I've also been known to sing L'Internationale for no particular reason. I love that tune.

 

Caradhas, 'leftist' is about as bad a word to most right-wing extemists as 'communist' ever was. It's sad, really. I know some of the left-wing extremists treat 'conservative' and 'Republican' the same way (though oddly I've never heard 'rightist').

 

I used to work with a girl who had been home schooled and she had NO social skills at all. She would argue with the customers, argue with her bosses, argue with her collegues over everything and could not take critisism. She said that her mum had never critisised her in her schooling and therefore we had no right too. Damned idiot went after me once saying that I was bullying her because I'd had to go into the system, spend 4 hours correcting her work and then sat her down and showed her what she'd done wrong.

Ashley's name is down to go to a C of E school when he's older but there are more reasons than my religion.
Firstly, it's the closest school to us
Secondly, it has a fabulous reputation
Thirdly, the none religious schools that I've looked round have said that they celebrate Ramadan, Hanukah and a whole host of other religious holidays but not the Christian ones as it could offend someone. Negative political correctness is not my glass of chardonnay.

Sounds to me that the people in this article just wanted to be seen as some kind of martyrs

 

Not really, not for those of us who are liberals/progressives. We think it's amusing, and in a strange way, endearing, since we like being liberals. But it's mostly used within the conservative echo chamber, when they are addressing each other, and it is supposedly insulting towards us.

For a politician it is an insult and can be dangerous for a political career. Two things to know: America is a very conservative country (in the US term, not how the term is used in the rest of the world) and liberals are in the minority. The second point is that it is left over from the Cold War days, which in many ways still informs the world view (or lack of it) for many Americans. The Left = commie and that means "the enemy." And what is also left over from those days, is our gigantic, bloated defense budget, which is making us broke (even though the Cold War ended 20 years ago). But notice, nobody, even supposedly "liberal" politicians will talk about it.

 

It doesn't make sense but would it be better the other way round? In France children get many days off for Catholic holy days but other religions are not even considered. Still, they are readily excused when it is known that they are away from school to attend some religious occasion.

I worked in highschools in the UK and I was surprised to see that one of the subjects was Religious Education. In France we couldn't have Religious Education in public schools (I use this term to refer to non private school as it can be misleading in a British context) so I was keen to understand what it was all about and from what I saw it was more about history and mythology. I can even see the value of this subject to teach kids about the existence of different system of values but that is something that is really alien to me as in France religion is clearly not a subject to be taught at school (yet). It is even forbidden for a teacher to let his or her pupils know about his or her belief and it is forbidden for pupils and teachers to wear anything that ostentatiously states any affiliation to a religious group (hence all the problems with the Islamic veil).

There is one thing that I couldn't get used to in the UK and that is people working on Sundays. Not that I'm a Christian or anything but a day of rest is not much to ask when you want to spend some time with your family or do things that don't necessarily involve shopping and standing in lines. Unfortunately the current French administration has made it possible for employers to force people to work Sundays with only a few exceptions (like Lyons where I live).

I wasn't too far off although I may have been wrong in my assessment that things could have changed more. Anyway, thanks for the explanations as I like to hear straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak).

 

Well, schools here aren't particularly good either - they are usually underfunded, understaffed, and the staff that they have is undermotivated (if such a word exists). I wouldn't be surprised if most US schools are somewhat better; I rather doubt they are as terrible as you claim. At the end of it all, however, schools are a place where you can learn if you want to. Yes, it helps to have more support at home - it always does. My point is that homeschooling should come in addition to regular school, not instead of it. As bad as you think a school is, as a parent or student you may be missing or taking from granted things that a professional knows. Ideally, the parents can exert some influence over the material and style of the school (if not support it in various ways), but I am wary of negating the role of school altogether.

As for students and parents making a fuss, well, that's probably going to be a problem with homeschooling too.

@Silvery - we didn't celebrate Easter or Christmas in school. We had vacation on those days - personally, I liked it more that way . If someone wanted to talk about Ramadan... actually, I don't think most schools in Bulgaria (those not affiliated with a certain minority) care much about minority religions and customs. For example, one or two schools in Sofia, even during Communism, had the majority of the, say, Jewish or Armenian students, they probably had something for their holidays. Likewise, schools in regions with large Turkish or Pomak minorities (or majorities) and it showed. However, in my school we never really cared for Ramadan or Hanukkah, nor knew when and what it was (if we did, it wouldn't be because of the school program).

 

Shaman, there are plenty of online resources for parents who want to homeschool so that they can cover the full spectrum, including fully-made, ready-to-use lesson plans with online material. Sure, a parent trying to homeschool off-the-cuff would be bad, but one who's really invested in it can easily beat most teachers simply by knowing the students better, only having 1-3 of them, and having a much more flexible system. Add in real disciplinary authority (something wholely lacking in our schools today) and you can have a wonderful teacher if the teacher is actually trying to teach a balanced lesson. Yes, you can always have nuts that only teach the Bible and nothing else, but that's why most (if not all) states mandate that homeschoolers file their lesson plans with the State and that the students still pass all standardized testing.

 

There is no religious celebration in schools in France either. Ever since 1905 religion has been separated from the state. We don't swear on the Bible in courts or when taking offices either.

As a former teacher I find the idea of homeschooling rather nonsensical unless you hire professionals to teach your kids (or are yourself qualified to ensure a comprehensive teaching to your children). To think that any parent could offer valid teaching to their children is IMO absurd. To make a quick comparison, I'm not a plumber or an electrician so I don't hesitate to call a qualified professional to fix anything that goes beyond the somewhat limited range of my skills in these areas and I think that we should value our children's education more than plumbing or electricity.

 

Caradhras, the education you get through highschool here isn't that advanced. I mean, Calc I is the most advanced math I saw, and that was an Advanced Placement course. The microbiology was, as far as technical detail goes, a joke. The same with the chemistry.

We're not talking about homeschooling college here, and even highschool is rare (experiments in class become challenging).

 

@NOG: I was disgruntled as a teacher because standards kept being lowered. Reading your post I assume that it's even worse in the States then because I was certainly not talking about homeschooling college.

 

Let me put it this way: With time, effort, preparation, and a little money, I could easily provide my child a better education than I got in public school. So could my brother. So could my wife. So could either of my parents, or either of her parents. Mind you, we're all very intelligent, rational, planning people, with various college degrees (or the equivalent from the Royal Academy of Music). John the steel-worker with a GED may have more trouble.

 

I could never provide my children an adequate education at home, because they would be learning everything from my own particular point of view. One of things I do like about the public school system is that my kids get to learn through the different lenses of a variety of teachers, which always brings something a little different towards their learning experience. Just about any education is what you make of it, despite the low standards.

The problem is the disruption caused by problem kids in their classes. For instance, last week they were getting ready to watch a film in class, when one of the problem kids pushed the TV off the stand and started dragging it around the classroom by the cord. The principal had to be called into the classroom to get the student under control and by the time they were able to remove him, it was too late. According to my daughter, this goes on all the time, but it's only a few students that disrupt the class like this most of the time. You would think they could fix this problem.

 

That is a very good point. I'm not a parent but I think I would like for my kids to be able to get different perspectives as well.

Sadly regarding the example you've posted it all has to do with our society and the way teachers are allowed to enforce discipline. The point is a teacher can't do much when a kid is behaving so badly except expel that kid from class and that in itself is a failure. The problem is that school should be a place where kids learn things and since many parents don't seem to be able to educate their children and by that I mean teach them to behave it's now the teacher's role to make them understand what they can or can't do. It's really sad and it makes real teaching almost impossible. Not to mention the fact that well behaved kids are the ones who suffer because they have to cope with tantrums and unruly behaviour when they should be learning.

Some kids have attention problems and others have real problems at home that they demonstrate in the classroom. Provocation on a kid's part is often a cry for help but that goes well beyond the role of a teacher. It's not necessarily linked to social factors as kids from well off families may display such problems and sometimes kids whose siblings were well behaved seem to be able to do almost anything to annoy their parents. It can be really complex and when a teacher can't communicate with the family or rely on parents to solve such a problem then things can only get worse.

And I'm not even considering kids with real psychological or even psychiatric issues.

The most important thing is to insure the children's safety and create a good learning environment, only then can you teach anything. When it works it looks like the easiest thing in the world but when it doesn't it can be really stressful for everyone.

The problem is that either you put all kids with problems together and that creates awful classes with kids that will never progress so basically you're giving up on them or you try to put kids with problems with other kids and hopefully create an environment in which they will be able to learn together.

The real problem originates in families. Kids who have no sense of boundaries or propriety and can't behave are the ones creating such situations. Most of them are not rebellious by nature, they're just acting up because they badly need attention and would do anything to get it. Some unruly kids are able to do great things once they find a teacher that is able to get through to them and who they can relate to. Unfortunately that is a very difficult task when a teacher has to cope with 30 pupils and when 5 out of 30 demonstrate such problems and require that much attention.