HoF, what party?

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So yeah, I'm seriously considering tackling HoF mode. The only problem I have at the moment is the following: am I(that is, my party) powerful enough?

As of now, I have the following members:

Paladin of Ilmater 1/Sorceress 15
Wizard 16
Barbarian 12/Fighter 4
Morning Lord of Lathander 16 and
Rogue 10/Fighter 6

All of them, aside from the wizard are humans and the wizard is elf. I'm probably taking sorceress all the way towards the arcane might, though if a good reason presents itself, I might take a few levels of monk or fighter. Rogue is probably going into fighter levels from now on, for extra feats and HP. I'm not really sure which way to take the barbarian/fighter. More feats, or more powerful rages and DR? And what about the wizard and cleric? Multiclass them or not? And if yes, which classes?

The reason why I'm asking all this is because I've read some guides on GamesFAQs and they are mentioning "decoy" characters, with AC in their 70's. I'm not sure if I can ever get my AC for any characters so high, so I guess my question is following...

Is there even a point of playing HoF with party like this? And if so, are there any specific changes I should take care of?

Thanks in advance!

 

Well, you have a sorc and a cleric, not to mention a wizard. So you can beat HOF with summons if nothing else. The other two guys are pretty much along for the ride...

 

I'd take a monk, wizard, druid, cleric, bard, fighter and barbarian. However, it's all down to personal preferance. I don't import characters to HoF when I play, I use sneaky tactics and summons until my guys are at a decent level.
If you like the party then go for it!

 

Your party is powerful enough for HoF mode, so don't worry. You can add a 6th party member (I recommend a bard) if you want the others to level faster, but that's not necessary.

The barbarian will benefit more from barbarian than from fighter levels.
For the casters I would take at least 20 casting levels before thinking about anything else.

 

Your party looks fine. But if the rogue happens to die during combat... maybe you shouldn't resurrect him. I agree with kmonster, that you should keep the barbarian and the other casting classes as pure as possible until about level 20. After that, the benefits of well-chosen mix in levels will be more advantageous, because the detriment to the main class won't be too great (you have all the spell levels, etc.). I would've considered the barbarian's 4 fighter levels for taking as mix-ins after level 20: I'd have taken one level at around level 14, for wearing good heavy armours which became available about then. Then the other three levels after barbarian20, so you can get Greater Tireless Rage first. Good luck.

 

I decided to go with this party purely because I like the flavor and I liked it in normal mode. It may not be the most optimised, but I had great fun playing it, that's why importing it.

The casters are staying pure until level 20, that much is for sure. Maybe even a little later, we'll see how things turn out. The only problem is sorceress, who has mainly damaging spells, which I guess aren't as good in HoF anymore. I'll just be taking debuffs and Summons from now on, should work fine enough. And I guess I'll keep on leveling barbarian, he has a decent damage output as it is, but I guess some more can't hurt Rogue is maybe not as powerful as the rest of the group, but she can take a lot of punishment. Or rather, avoid it, since she has the best AC and Reflex saves, so I'm kinda liking her and will probably keep her anyway

I'm not really sure how hard the game will be, but I am looking forward to it. So far, we managed to clear the Targos docks without a casualty to our side, but this is only warming up. It was fun though

 

Here's mine

I've planned (and have played with) this party some time ago, and think it is quite good, for both normal and HOF mode. It relies less on maxing one's magical capabilities early on and depends more on my skill with a party with relatively little magic until I begin HOF. Not certainly everyone's cup of tea, but I'm having fun with it.

There are people who wish to make a party a sort of "super-organism", with everyone being the best at what he/she does and quite dependent on others. My party is "role-playing" party in the sense that everyone is quite capable of taking care of oneself and does not need a nanny should things get sticky, though there is some power variance between characters.

I also utilise some level squatting to enable my party rather high levels on HOF, though perhaps not achieving 30. I'm not a big believer in the saving grace of spell resistance, so I decided to pass on the races granting it and have an easier time with multiclassing.

Paladin: LG Wild Elf Pal(3)Fter(4)Monk(3)Sorc(20)
Str 18 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 1 Wis 3 Cha 18
This is the best sorcerous paladin character I can come up with: Specialization, maximized attacks, evasion, monk speed, immunity to fear & disease, a boatload of quite effective spells.

Druid: LN Human Monk(5)Druid(21)Fter(4)
Str 18 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 3 Wis 18 Cha 3
Here's a druid that tries to be the best possible druid character, while not perhaps the best druid spellchucker. Extra +1 AC and some good skills from monk levels, specialization and wild shape options make this quite a good character. Some minus comes from the alignment as it is vulnerable to both blasphemy and holy word spells, but I guess I can live with that.

Barbarian: NE Welf Barb(3)Fter(4)Rog(3)Sorc(20)
Str 18 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 1 Wis 3 Cha 18
A darker shade of the first character, this is the rogue barbarian sorcerer counterpart to the monk paladin sorc. She has slightly worse saving throws than the first one and no immunity from fear, but has access to some unique (and evil) items not available to the other.

Cleric: LG Human Pal(3)Fter(4)Lathander (20)Monk(3)
Str 18 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 3 Wis 18 Cha 3
The only one of my characters to get some levels in his main class early: first 12 levels are cleric, then begins multiclassing. This is the best clerical paladin I can come up with, though there are probably advocates for Ilmaterian and Helmite versions as well.

Bard: CG Human Barb(3)Fter(4)Rog(3)Bard(20)
Str 18 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 3 Wis 3 Cha 18
The party's talker is a formidable war machine as well, though suffers from bad will saves.

Thief: LE Tiefling Rog(10)Wiz(20)
Str 18 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 20 Wis 3 Cha 1
Here's the "useful but less destructive" character of my party, getting all the necessary skills not related to talking.

There could be alternative choices for most characters that would mean less melee and more spellchucking capability, but I like the idea of my characters dishing out some damage with weapons as well with spells, and that pretty much requires 4 fter levels and/or maxed out strength.

The alternative version, more focused on spellcasting, would be probably something like this

Human Pal2/Monk1/Fter1/Sorc26

Human Monk3/Druid27

Human Rogue2/Barb/Rgr/Sorc26

Aasimar Pal2/Lathander28

Human Rogue3/Bard27

Tiefling Rogue2/Fter2/Wiz26

All would have maximum attack number at level 30 (though half of the party not before it), quite many and more effective spells compared to the party I'm playing with. The sacrifice for spell levels would be specialization (which I value highly), maximized attacks, some speed and BAB, which means less attacks and less damage per hit. I use spells mostly for buffing my characters' damage dealing capabilities and hampering those of my enemies' and think I get the most of my playing style with the party I've chosen.

The only thing I lack and would've liked to have is an almost pure arcane spellchucker with the capability for doomsday spells. I'm imagining a character like aasimar sorc26/pal3/monk1, with multiclassing done at the very end and having stats like S9 D18 C10 I18 W5 C20 and having a crossbow or a normal one. I'd like to substitute this for the thief, but then I'd have no intelligent or skilful characters.

 

I hope you don't mind if I offer some commentary. Most of my criticisms are about the many mix-in levels you take with these builds. Every mix-in level seriously delays the progression of your main class, and every next alternative level weighs heavier than the previous one due to the leveling system. You didn't mention the timing, so if most of the alternative levels are taken after main class level 17-20, you can disregard much of what I say.
If you're interested, i have a leveling table in my guide, detailing the choices I made. The guide also offers explanations.

The monk speed isn't worth 3 mix-ins. Even if you got a wisdom bonus to AC, i still wouldn't advise 3 levels, just 1. Same story for the paladin; the 2nd and 3rd levels only give an insignificant aura vs. fear (lvl1 Remove Fear is much better, and lasts 10 minutes), and Remove Disease. Not worth the delay of your main casting class. Weapon Specialization and Maximized Attacks aren't crucial to dealing damage (Max. Attacks will require that you spend 5! feats on combat, instead of focusing your spells).

Read above about fighter; see fighter as a late mix-in for weapon feats and extra feats. Once you ditch the 4 fighter levels, you can deflate the burdensome 5-level monk mix-in too.

Another character with 10 mix-in levels. Try cutting them down to 1 level per alternative class...

This says enough; you're going to acquire the mix-ins first. A rookie mistake, if you don't mind my saying... BTW, cleric reflex progression is poor, so the monk Evasion will often fail. I recommend Pal1/Ftr2, or Ftr4 mixed in, but timing is crucial. If you must have the monk for the AC, then you *must* level up in WISdom, or wearing shield+armour will be better.

My approach towards bards is unconventional, since I choose to let them specialize in singing+spellcasting, so they don't need much STRength, and focus all their feats on casting NOT combat. My wizards and sorcerers actually make better melee combatants, while the bard plays the role of the weakling at the back. Your bard has 10 mix-in levels (again), meaning it will never get more than 20 levels in the main class (without the level 40 patcher anyway). Bardic spell progression is slow, and level 7 spells become available at bard level 22, level 8 spells (Wail of the Banshee) at bard level 26.

This one's pretty decent, though I wouldn't limit its CONstitution; you could manage all the necessary skills easily with 18 INTelligence. Maybe you know already, but a wizard (with or without a rogue level or 2) can cover all the party's rogue skill needs. But if you want to try the high level rogue feats, then by all means try it.

No, it really doesn't. The power of buff spells will dwarf the influence of the +1attack, +2damage of 4 fighter levels. Try the cleric buffs Prayer, Recitation and Bull's/Champion's Strength, the mage/bard's Emotion:Hope and Mass Haste. And the awesome Executioner's Eyes... I'm not even mentioning self-buff spells. Don't unnecessarily delay your character 3or 4 levels, when you could be using these spells instead!

The 2nd paladin level isn't worth it; get another feat from the 2nd fighter level instead (but time it late).

Read the monk comments above.

If rogue is for the CHArisma item, time it accordingly.

Same criticism about 2nd pally level...

1 level mix-in, I'd recommend.

Yeah, your best character, I'd say. Remember to time the mix-ins properly.

It seems to me that your delayed access to buff spells will hamper your party, and also your play style, for a long time. And I'd always recommend keeping an INTelligent character around.

 

Gotta agree with coin here: That's some rather excessive multiclassing there.

I tried the 10 mix-ins + 20 main combo on a modded game that gave me double exp for kills, always some minimum exp for kills AND started with only two characters, yet I felt the 10 mix-ins seriously hurt the character all the way towards the latter half of HOF mode. Note that even under those extreme conditions, he barely reached level 30 (no squatting) so anything beyond level 25 should NEVER be considered under anything even remotely resembling "normal" play!

 

It's all good and welcome.

I hadn't thought of that. I was looking at the "bottom line", so to speak, and thought first "what makes this guy think I won't use buffs?", but as I read on I understood that getting them earlier makes my characters better warriors than they'd be with specialization alone and with lower level buffs.

So that makes you right: they'd be worse off through the whole game than a group of mostly single class or minimal mix-in classes. Dang.

Time to revise it a bit and aim for 25+ main class levels.

 

Nothing inherently wrong with mix-ins, it's all about timing.

Specialization is a pain just because you either get it early and accept that you won't be tossing high level spells before the latter parts of HOF mode or you get it late and might as well not bother at that point.

The 10warrior/20mage mix I mentioned above did, in fact, succeed in what I wanted it to - it became a ferocious warrior pretty soon since I needed a strong tank from the beginning, but it felt lame to be tossing low level spells when everyone else around him had level 7, 8 and 9 in abundance. I did have the essentials covered by the rest of the party so it wasn't really THAT bad. I only started pulling my hair out in wait for Tenser's Transformation to keep him comfortably safe from harm - level 21 for a Deep Gnome ain't early, no matter how you slice it. (Squatting and such lameness notwithstanding.)

 

Yes, a few levels are ok, to gain evasion, monk wis bonus, weapon proficiencies or something else considered equally important.

With such a character one would expect to focus on protective and buffing spells that don't suffer much from low level casting and leave the bombing stuff to others.

 

As Sir Rechet and Coin have said, mix-ins can make some very powerful combinations, but you need to be careful when you do them. Honestly, I don't see anything too wrong with what you've suggested, so long as you take all your main casters to max level first. That means several of these characters will remain a little delecate for the first several levels of HoF, but they should be managable.

Use summons as your tanks, they get buffed just as much as your enemies do in HoF, they're expendable, and you can start out with the late-level summons at the beginning of the game if you want.

What others have said about minimizing the levels of mix-ins is, IMO mixed advice. On the one hand, you don't get that much from lvls 2, 3, or 4 of Monk, Paladin or the like, but then, you don't get that much from lvls 21, 22, 23, or 24 of Sorcerer, Wizard, Druid and the like. It's true that you can potentially raise them up to 25 or 26 to get access to more high-level spells, but you've already gained the basic potential there. It comes down to whether you prefer the added speed, maximized attack, and the like over one extra Wail of the Banshee.

As for Maximized Attack, it can be absolutely devastating, even with a primary caster, if you use it right. Combine it with the ranged magical weapon attacks like Sword of Mordenkeinen (sp?) and you've got yourself a very nice damage dealer, even against the toughest enemies. Again, though, it does come at the cost of 5 feats. Those fighter levels can help with that, but you'll still feel it.

Basically, don't try to get anyone to do everything, but don't be afraid to try odd combos. The often work in IWD2.

 

Yes, that was the point -- although not even having more than one Mirror Image until level 13 (apart from the racial one) seemed rather backwards and "too late". He managed well, mind you, just felt like the defensive buffs started appearing a little late to my taste.

 

There are more subtle considerations here too, which carry on even after caster level 20: Spell durations (round/level spells) and hit die (DBFB) make the spells more effective. Types of summons also change at higher level. Caster level is also what determines your chances to overcome enemy Spell Resistance, so the more mix-in levels, the easier your spells can be resisted.

There's also something funny going on with attacks/round: Although I recall seeing 6 attacks/round on rare occasions, 5 seems to be the regular maximum. For example, If my high level characters have 4 attacks/round +1 off-hand attack when dual wielding, then Haste doesn't increase this, and neither does an item that increases attacks. But when I switch my Hasted character to a 2-handed weapon, then they get 5 main hand attacks. So maybe the attacks/round are capped, I don't know...

 

IMHO, this is the biggest weakness of the warrior classes relative to clerics. With all the ways of increasing attacks/round already (Rapid Shot +1, Haste +1, Force of Lightning +2), a cleric is already bumping up against the 5-attack cap long before he maxes out on levels. The BAB bonus from being a fighter lets you max out sooner, but in the long run it doesn't help much of anything.

-Max

 

A better party

So I revised my party and came to the conclusion that in melee there's really no way around the +5 AC of deep gnomes, no matter that they get less strength initially than the other folks. They can gain it like everyone else and they end up paying 2-4 points of strength to gain what is practically 8-10 points of dexterity to most, and the relative exp gain that allows my arcane casters to level faster than them makes the choice a no-brainer.

DG Cleric/Oghma
S16+4 D20 C14 I3 W20+3 C1

DG Druid
S16+4 D20 C14 I3 W20+3 C1

DG Pal1/Fter1/Rog2/IllX
S16+7 D20 C14 I18 W5 C1

Drow Bard
S9 D20 C14 I14 W3 C20+7

Drow Sorc
S18 D20 C14 I5 W3 C20+7

Drow Sorc
S18 D20 C14 I5 W3 C20+7

Now this looks like a rather good party to me. Divine casters will get +4 STR first, then +3 WIS later if they get there, the leeloo dallas multiclass will go STR all the way to bolster the chances of hitting and damaging anything, relying on buffs and such stuff to avoid getting too much hits.

The first three characters are the ones to handle melee - their high AC protects them rather well in normal mode and the wizkid may actually be somewhat meleeworthy even in HOF (I haven't pondered on that yet).

The drow are the heavy artillery, providing death, destruction and misery to foes in ways the stunty fellows can't.

Comments?

 

If you want more AC, giving up just one cleric level for monk should give about +8 to AC... more if you put all your points to WIS. Don't worry about the cross-class penalty; this will help your other characters level even higher.

 

You're hung up on the issue of AC, but that isn't necessarily wrong. It wouldn't be my main priority, and I definitely wouldn't change my build for a few points in AC.
Your party looks good. My main comment, is that you're slightly neglecting CON: I see CON as a multiplier for the effectiveness of a character. Whatever it is that they do well, they can do it for longer with more hipoints. 14CON is decent enough, but it can be augmented by scraping off some STR, for example. CON will help your characters in *both* melee and spellcasting, unlike STR, which only helps them in melee.
I'm sure you noticed how much more stat points drow get (+4) as opposed to deep gnomes (-2)... The DGs really pay dearly for their bonuses.

 

Good idea, although you then proceed to ruin it by making them Drow. Caster with ECL penalty = bad, unless you have something very specific in mind. Yet in a party with three Deep Gnomes, it ain't all that bad.

The Wizkid is limited to 65 AC without Tenser's (technically 67 since you have a Bard) since you don't boost his DEX, and just barely makes it to 72 AC with it, requiring almost perfect roll. Doable, sure, but I'd boost DEX instead.

The cleric tank actually has much higher AC potential, assuming you make it a Dreadmaster with a Monk mix-in level. Here again, you should be boosting WIS (or even DEX) instead of STR as STR doesn't really do all that much (compared to all the other buffs) while there's a world of difference between AC70 and AC72 in the end.