Carter's Racism accusation

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I edited that before you posted.

 

Sorry, I missed your edit, and no I don't think it has anything to do with that. Thankfully, Obama has the brains to distance itself from Carter's comments

 

What else can Obama say? Even when Carter is right and even if that's what Obama actually thinks, Obama cannot say he shares Carter's view without exposing himself and giving ammunition to the people who are relentlessly attacking him already. No matter whether Carter is right or not, it isn't expedient for Obama to do that. This isn't worth taking a stance on without getting distracted from the real issues.

Harassment, disruption and distraction are among the main reasons for the attacks on Obama anyway. They hope to divert resources and attention away from governing to the defence of Obama.

 

Snook, read.

He specifically said "that kind of personal attack" was likely "influenced to a major degree" by a climate of racism. A climate which you know damn well is present in the south (particularly South Carolina) and in Wilson's personal history. T2 and I both agreed that Carter took it a step too far, but there's no denying there's an element of racism in "that kind of personal attack." Same with the birther nonsense, and the Muslim nonsense, and others. Honest policy disagreements on the merits are not racist. Don't act like that's what Carter was talking about, or what the majority of Republicans are engaging in right now. Most conservatives are attacking a scary caricature of Obama, not what he actually is, represents or is proposing.

What do you expect? You know damn well I didn't imply you were a racist. That means you're being a baby.

 

... and we move away from the high road yet again.

Snook: I interpreted the statement you quoted in much the same way initially (hence my statement that Carter went a bit too far). After reading more from the same interview my interpretation shifted a little. When he refers to the people guilty of that kind of personal attack on Obama, he is referring to the people who engage in extreme attacks (which I think we can all see examples of in the news).

Edit: I'm guess my 30 wpm typing skills can't keep up. I think Ragusa has the right idea about why the President issued his statement about the comments from Carter. Agreeing with Carter would be counter-productive and Obama knows that -- he's a smart guy (and one of the reasons I liked him as the democratic candidate ... granted, I liked McCain more...).

 

Well, after some good arguements here, methinks Carter is still wrong, but I understand his position. The visiblity of it is not apparent to me in my daily life, as there are not a lot of Reps or Obama haters in my area that I know of. But I am living in Illinois, so that speaks for itself. He and others could and probably do encounter it more often, especially those living in the South. After some good reading ala the internet, I have seen a little more racist remarks about him, but still alot more of it was about policy. I'm still trying to sift thru some of Fox News's articles, some of them are a bit radical.

 

True, he is very visible now, but only because he made an ass of himself. Before this had happened would you or anyone else have said he was "The voice of the GOP"? My point is if one of the others I mentioned had said it an argument could be made that they are the "voice of the GOP" Therefore I take exception to his statement being credited as the GOP point of view.

 

To me, this is pretty simple. Obama said:

"There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This too is false. The reforms (pause, from GOP booing and heckling) the reforms I am proposing would not insure those who are here illegally." (then came YOU LIE!)

Now, a question (okay, 2):

Do you believe that only Joe Wilson believes Obama is lying when he says this?
Do you honestly believe that a majority of the GOP believes Obama is NOT lying when he says this?

 

Blades: I work in a conservative office and see a little racism toward Obama. I lived in Texas and saw pretty extensive racism there (and I live in one of the most liberal areas of Texas). I think very few conservative journalists (and talk show hosts) are willing to overtly display racism, but instead allow their bias (which I think is a more correct term) to sway them easily on issues. This bias also prevents these people from using the brain-to-mouth filter as often as it should be used -- the nastiness by these few people is stunning.

Snook, Wilson is a pion in the House. That's a given. He's a representative from a relatively small area -- but a member of the House has enormous power, even freshmen members. These guys have more power and influence than some leaders of foreign countries (so I can see where Tal is coming from here). Wilson knows (or should know) the rules of the floor which forbid such direct accusations. He intentionally, and in a world wide televised event, violated the most basic rules of decency on the floor and openly questioned the integrity of the President. I think everyone realizes what he did was wrong -- and you're right, had it been someone like McCain it would have been worse.

DR: I don't believe the majority felt he was lying as opposed to glossing over the issue. Having rules, with no means to enforce those rules, is essentially the same as allowing illegal immigrants to use the system.

 

To be fair, I had never heard of Joe Wilson either. In fact, outside of Governor "Hiking the Appilacian Trial" Sanford, I could not name a single political figure from South Carolina before last week.

 

Snook - Race is only one element in the nasty nature of this debate, and it's certainly a part of it - but not all of it. If you need a worse example, listen to Rush attacking Colin Powell:

 

Snook - It's the forum he said it in that matters. Any Republican that made that comment would be projecting that point of view as the GOPs. It's supporters will jump on it immediately. It didn't have to be Palin, McCain or whoever, any Rep making that comment in that forum will project this. Even if it ain't so, that is how it will be viewed by both the GOP supporters and it's Opposition.

 

I think it's important that I post this video again, as some who claim it was just "one guy" need to watch it again, and this time, turn up their sound.

About halfway through, after Obama makes his initial statement about not insuring illegal immigrants and that "this too is false," he is interrupted by a wave of boos and heckles. Clearly far more than just one guy. In fact, you can distinctly hear Wilson (or someone that sounds like him) say "YOU LIE" amidst the noise. After a pause, Obama essentially goes on to say the same thing again. It's after this time that the now infamous "YOU LIE!" is clearly heard, but only because Wilson's the only one saying it. Listen:



Wilson's big mistake was one of inconvenient timing. But it's pretty obvious to me he was just going with the flow of his peers. They all think Obama was lying. Wilson just happened to be a little more excitable than the others.

So I ask again: Do you honestly believe Wilson was the ONLY GUY who thought Obama was lying when he said that?

 

I've never liked Rush -- although occasionally he does make a good point (not this time though). But I tend to categorize such occasions along with the monkeys and typewriters analogy.

 

To paraphrase Bill Clinton "It depends on your definition of lying"

I believe the phrase is "nobody is illegal". Well if nobody is illegal then insuring them isn't a lie.

Another interpretation is if there aren't any enforcement provisions in the bill (which there aren't) then it is very easy to say that "illegals" will not get the coverage when it is obvious that they will end up getting the coverage. Once again, while perhaps not technically a lie, it isn't the truth either.

However, to answer your questions in both cases I do not believe them to be the case. I do believe that many people and clearly a majority of the GOP do believe that Obama is lying or at the very least not describing what is actually going to happen.

 

Then how can you keep insisting that this is just one guy? Sure, just one guy made an ass of himself by saying it out loud. But he obviously said what those around him were thinking (and, in the video I reposted above, saying themselves moments prior).

I disagree that there aren't enforcement provisions in the bill (this has been debunked, I believe), but even if true, the GOP are still out of order here. They are basically saying that Obama is intentionally leaving loopholes in the bill so he can Trojan-horse healthcare for illegals in. That's an outrageous accusation (and misreading of the facts) and taking things way too far.

 

There are laws and enforcement (as pathetic as it is) against people not being here legally. Hence the term, "illegals."

 

Because it was only one guy (or maybe a few as I can't see the Youtube video because of the damn IT guys) who were "Out of Order". The GOP members who sat there quietly and listened to Obama's speech are being lumped in with the jerk(s). Once again, it is about the broad brush strokes. I am sure at every Joint Session of Congress that Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush 2 had there were plenty of people who were sitting there saying "What a lying sack of ****" but they were respectful of the office. Now this Wilson guy loses his cool and somehow this lack of respect is a GOP problem and then it goes further as Carter blames racism, which now becomes a GOP problem also.

 

What I think you're missing though is that yes, while all Presidents have their honesty questioned eventually, there's usually a good reason for it. Bush was never well liked by Dems, but he was given deference. Once 9/11 happened, he was given absolute reverence. It wasn't until the run-up to Iraq, when he started making claims about Saddam's WMD stockpiles that he refused to substantiate convincingly that he began to be openly accused of misleading the public. And even then, the worst he got in a joint session of congress were rolled eyes and people staying in their seats during standing ovations. He was never booed and heckled the way Obama was the other night.

Bush further stoked the fires of animosity towards him by being consistently evasive and lacking in candor, preferring to speak in sweeping odes to "spreading freedom" and "the American spirit" than make honest efforts to convince people of his statements. And anyone who called him on this had their patriotism and respect for the office questioned by members of the GOP.

Obama has been enduring this current level of derision and disrespect from all corners of the GOP since before he even took office. And he's done nothing - nothing - to deserve it. This derision is often based on claims that have only a faint trace of reality to them. It's really baffling to most people who pay attention to such things, especially the moderates like myself who support him. So therefore, when people like Jimmy Carter make suggestions that latent racism may have something to do with it, while we don't totally agree, we have to consider the source and admit that there's likely some merit to it. The anti-Obama sentiment is often so extreme and so intemperate that we're pretty much open to any explanations at this point.