GOP heckles Obama as a "Liar" before congress

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You're welcome to read my response to NOG on exactly that. I think it covers the faulty logic you just employed.

As an aside, though, I must remind you that by your own definition, anytime anyone says anything on behalf of Obama, no matter how distant or non-existent their connection to Obama himself, they're part of the "Obama Smear Machine" since, as you say, the buck stops with him, and he's ultimately responsible for anything said on his behalf. If I'm to assume the opposite is true, well, the GOP has no clear leader right now, so even by your goofy wingnut logic, I'm well within the realm of fact to blame the inexcusable actions of "one man" on the GOP as a whole.

I'll gladly accept your apology for calling me a liar any time.

 

Oh, no, DR -- Not more "facts getting in the way of good story?" Will the fun never end?

 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that.

You're welcome to show me where I called you a liar, or, you can just shut up

 

Oh, I'm sure you know exactly where. You're not 10 years old. Saying I eschewed the facts in favor of telling "a good story" is the same thing.

And yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that, since you're obviously unwilling to hold yourself or your side to your own absurd standards.

Unless, of course, you actually believe Wilson's sentiments are unique to him in the majority of your party, or that Wilson is, somehow, not actually an elected, proud member of the GOP. In which case I might just have to reference Drew's previous comments regarding your grip on reality.

 

Ding! Ding!, Round 1 (Hot scorecard girl circles the ring!)

"Gentleman, I want a clean fight, no hitting below the belt, no "rabbit" punches, no biting and no insulting each other's mother, ya got it? Good, now may the best man win. Back to your corners."

 

Oh no Blades, I think we're done here. Typically he starts pretending I'm not there well before we get to this point. You'll have to settle for UFC.

 

That video is hilarious...

"YOU LIE!!!!"
*Obama doesn't know what to say, so he points confusedly at Wilson*
*Nancy Pelosi rearranges her face into one of shock*
Obama (quietly): That's not true.

 

Good quote on that incident from Pat Lang:

Nothing to add to that from me.

 

I like that quote, Ragusa. It sums up my entire problem with the bulk of the current GOP.

I say: dislike, distrust and disagree with Obama to your heart's content. Hold his feet to the fire. Keep him honest. That is what I love. That is the heart and soul of Democracy.

But that's not what the current GOP is doing. They compare him to Hitler. They call him a Marxist. They call him a radical Muslim. They call him a racist. They misrepresent just about everything he says and does (when they aren't making things up entirely) and have the gall to call him a liar. They've been doing it on TV and blogs for months now. The only difference between the past few months and last night's event is only the place and the time. Does anyone really believe for one second that if Wilson were at a private party, surrounded by the same GOP legislators he was last night, he'd have gotten the same negative reaction form his colleagues for shouting LIAR! at Obama? How about at a Tea Party? Would anyone have said "hang on a minute, bud - that's going too far?" Serious question.

And that's why I blame the whole GOP, not just Wilson, for what happened last night. They've been creating an atmosphere where saying horrible, unsubstantiated things from a place of authority is not only tolerated, but encouraged. They've been doing that in place of contributing a good-faith effort to the reform process. It took until well into 2003 before Bush experienced anything like the current level of animosity Obama faces, and these people have been doing it since before Obama even took office. The same jerks who just a few years ago were so fond of saying that anyone who didn't support Bush's war policy were "objectively pro-terrorist."

 

DR,
the GOP for that sort of stuff is a permissive environment, particularly off camera.

 

But it doesn't have to be. And deep down I don't think it wants to be.

 

Depends on which wing of the GOP you are. There is one wing with its sub-sects who relishes it, and who can be driven by primal fears and carefully calculated appeals to their base sentiments.

And then there is that other wing who has a constant demand for useful idiots.

The two live together symbiotically. As far as how large a proportion they make up of the GOP I don't know. They're certainly have a way of making themselves impossible to not hear or to ignore.

 

Both parties have their fever swamps and useful idiots. But I believe the majority in both parties are made up of decent, reasonable people. You don't need to get someone to believe whole-heartedly that a President is just like Hitler for them to oppose him. All you have to do is say it enough to make people say they "just don't trust him."

That's why people like Glenn Beck are so scary. They bring Hitler comparisons - something I thought everyone agreed was WAY beyond the pale - into the mainstream. Thanks to Fox News and right-wing blogs, the fever swamps are now the GOP mainstream. When an ignoramus like Sarah Palin says "Death Panels" on her Facebook page and over 2/3 of all Republicans believe her, we've got problems.

 

Yeah, in a sick sorta way.

DR - Since I can remember, the Republicans have had a problem with that wing of the party. I don't know, maybe Dems did as well, but that would be before my time. I still remember Republicans I knew going to the convention here in Houston and being spit on by the crazies in their own party, because they supported the more moderate Republicans. I don't what it is, but I've lost all tolerance for them. The REAL Republicans aren't going to get their party back until they stand up to these morons and take their party back. If they do, the Dems had better watch out. Until then, they may as well forget it.

 

So, it's ok for you to post carelessly, and even to assume a common motive for hundreds of people based on one man's statement, yet you criticize someone else for making a similarly misleading/uneducated claim?

And again, do you not see the irony here? You've hardly engaged in a civil discussion thusfar yourself.

And here I want to point something else out to you. I believe that calling President Obama a liar is something to analyze, correct, and oppose, but not to attack the entire party over. To be clear, I believe if he had said it at a GOP party, there'd be nothing wrong. I'm sure plenty of Dems said similar things about Bush at Dem parties, and I have nothing against that. Right or wrong, they're free to say it. Just like you're free to accuse the entire GOP of complacancy in one breath and then say the majority of the GOP are decent, reasonable people and only a few blowhards are to blame in another. It's the same thing. It was only the forum and manner that was inapropriate and deserves apology and sanctions.

Seriously, DR. Look through your posts here (and elsewhere for that matter). You're starting to sound exactly like the very people you're criticizing. I may have even read you accusing them (in general) of racism (or that may have been Ragusa or Coin, not sure). You haven't gone so far down the road, but you're following the same map. Calm down, clear your head, and keep your emotions in check. If you don't, you may not like what you become (or you may, but the rest of us won't).

 

...except for the fact that illegals aren't going to have a social security number.

 

Riiiight, because we totally don't have a problem with illegal aliens using other people's social security numbers here in the US.

 

Frankly NOG, you aren't making much sense.

I assume a common motive for the bulk of the GOP because the bulk of the GOP thinks Obama is a liar. I watched the speech last night. Did you? When Obama called out the "death panel" line as the BS that it was, every Republican in that chamber heckled him. Sure, Rep. Wilson was balked at by his peers after his outburst. But his office today has been flooded with calls in support of what he said. There are already t-shirt companies making "I'm with Joe Wilson!" t-shirts that are selling like mad. Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove and Fox News and RedState.org ALL went on the air today and praised him as a hero. Yesterday he was an unknown, today he is a star. If it is unfair of me to observe that the bulk of the current GOP agrees with him, then why the hell they are doing such a magnificent job of agreeing with him?

As for my civility: I have engaged in as civil a discourse as is warranted with a side that finds it acceptable - even reasonable - to make Nazi comparisons. If you think I'm arguing like the people I oppose, well, you're not reading me very well. Perhaps I don't come off as nice sometimes, but I admit to having little patience with intellectually dishonest people who are old enough and educated enough to know better (not you).

And I hate to harp on vernacular, but perhaps the way you were raised, the term "liar" was a benign, neutral thing to say. You can say the President is "wrong" if you think he's wrong. You can say he's "ignorant" or "misinformed." But when you say he's lying, you'd better be able to prove it. Wilson could not prove it, because it is in fact HE who is dead wrong about the proposal in question and even today seems uninterested in correcting the record.

And no, you never EVER call someone a liar in serious discourse. Once the opposition starts yelling "You lie!" they have essentially abandoned the deliberative process, by questioning the good faith of a speaker. Without an assumption of good faith or a factual rebuttal, just calling someone a liar abolishes the integrity of the debating process. It ends a conversation, and policy-making is about conversation. Basically, NOG, it's not something grownups do. Never in my life have a known a person that was called a liar who was not thoroughly insulted. These same people could care less if you said they were wrong.

Some things, frankly, you're just pulling out of who knows where. I've never once accused Ragusa or Coin of racism, nor anyone else here for that matter. That isn't a charge I would make lightly and I have no idea where you got that. [edit: just realized I read this part of your statement wrong. Disregard.]

Bottom line, though, NOG - I am not contradicting myself. When I said "the bulk of the GOP," I was referring mainly to the leadership. I'm man enough to admit I could have been more clear about that, but I thought it obvious. "GOP" is more commonly used when referring to Republican leadership, so I assumed that was understood. The elected officials (like Wilson) and the major voices (like Limbaugh), who have a responsibility to engage the issues in good faith and do precisely the opposite. When I said the majority of conservatives are good people, I meant it. Unfortunately good people get easily swayed by some really f*'d up ideas, which is why I rail so hard against the leadership.