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The torture debate after Bush

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Ragusa, Aug 31, 2009.

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  1. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    Remove all ads!
    [​IMG]
    :bigeyes:Ohwwwmm??!? Soooooohw, did they use nationalism alongside other motivators? And did nationalism produce bad results, as always...?
    :idea::exactly:
     
    coineineagh, Sep 5, 2009
    #101
  2. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    No. I told you, they used fear. And misinformation. I don't remember anyone saying "We need to invade Iraq to make America great and strong again!" They said "We need to invade Iraq because they're dangerous, have WMDs, and fund terrorists that will attack us!" The closest they came to 'nationalism' was national identity: meaning people in NY being attacked is bad for people in Texas.
     
    NOG (No Other Gods), Sep 5, 2009
    #102
  3. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    What about: 'When you're against the war you're un-American and a traitor, and if you don't like it go to Canada?' Point is, while the war goals weren't driven by nationalism, the war fever and support for the war itself was.
     
    Ragusa, Sep 6, 2009
    #103
  4. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    It played a role, but I don't really think it was a significant one. This is evidenced by the number of people who were actively against the war, yet weren't arrested, attacked, or otherwise silenced for it. Sure, some of them were arrested, usually for going out of line. A few others were attacked, by loons from the extremist right who were then arrested themselves. By and large, though, the movement didn't get anything more than verbal abuse. That still suggests to me that fear was the main factor.
     
    NOG (No Other Gods), Sep 6, 2009
    #104
  5. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Yes I do think it played a very significant role, considering the utter impossibility to discuss the war and question its cause openly in late 2002 and early 2003. I remember that period particularly well.

    That is to say, nationalism was utilised as a tool to build support for the war. In that nationalism was not inly significant but essential.
     
    Ragusa, Sep 6, 2009
    #105
  6. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Fear has been the keyword in the GOP efforts for years now. People who are kept in a continual state of looming fear from one direction or another (terrorists, foreigners, guns, unplugged grandmas, the disabled on death panels...) are far easier to control and manipulate. Fear of retaliation by those in favour of the war was very present as well. Bush could hardly have spelled it out more clearly for America and the world at large: "You're either with us, or against us.". "Us" here being those of us who are in favour of the war.

    EVERYONE got the message loud and clear. Bush didn't leave any room for "patriotic" Americans to consider those who were against the war as anything else but unpatriotic at best or treasonous at worst. Thousands of people in the US lost their jobs because their (Republican) employers didn't appreciate their views on the war. Telling how they actually felt about the war only put their job on the line, so everyone smart kept silent about it. One of our dearly departed members demonstrated quite graphically what happens when you think that your political affiliation should have no bearing on how your employer treats you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
    Taluntain, Sep 6, 2009
    #106
  7. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    Oh, I'll agree that those in power at the time (and not just political power) acted well out of line, and I hope that it never happens again (though, honestly, fear is too effective of a weapon to be left alone for long). I'm just saying that nationalism served no greater role than to expand the field of that fear's impacts.
     
    NOG (No Other Gods), Sep 6, 2009
    #107
  8. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Tal has the critical remark here, but he misquoted Bush. Bush actually said, "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" Which I'd say is a bit worse than being simply "against" the US.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Sep 8, 2009
    #108
  9. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG] Aldeth, I distinctly remember Bush saying 'against us' to the international community. He probably used both, because it's one of those typical 'signing statements' he used whenever he was asked a difficult or controversial question. I'd bet he used 'against us' more often, since it's a less syllable-intensive workout;).
     
    coineineagh, Sep 9, 2009
    #109
    LKD and Blades of Vanatar like this.
  10. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    The quote I'm talking I'm refering to was not made to the international community, but was during a press conference - and I don't think it was done immediately following the 9/11 attacks, but rather in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. That was when they were spouting the "Saddam connected to the 9/11 attack" nonsense.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Sep 9, 2009
    #110
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