Father convicted in Prayer Death

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This is like somethng from the Dark Ages.

Astounding ignorance. The guy should get the 25 years in prison.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32252045/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

 

What a tit! Some people shouldn't be allowed to have kids!

 

This guy appealed, so there will be another court. I feel that they should make an public example of him. People can't be told enough that faith healing doesn't work.

I hope this does at least some serious damage to his faith. God promised X in the bible -> God didn't do X -> ( God doesn't exist or God is a liar or I misread it or I should stop being a gullible moron and use some common sense. )

 

There's an old joke I heard as a child, one of my favorites, which I think is useful for stories like this:

A man's town is flooding, and he is trapped in his house. Faithfully, he believes God will rescue him. First, the water rises to the level of his porch. A man in a row boat comes by and asks if he needs a lift. The man says, "No, my God will save me." Then, the water rises to the level of the first floor. From the second floor window, he sees a second rowboat come by. Again, the owner asks if the man needs a lift. Again, the man says, "No, my God will save me." Eventually, the water floods even the second floor. Taking shelter on the roof, he sees a rescue helecopter come by. "Jump on," the pilot says, "we'll take you to safety!" Again, the man responds, "No, my God will save me." Ultimately, the waters rise and the man drowns in the flood. When he gets to Heaven, he asks God, "God, why didn't you save me? Wasn't I faithful enough?" To which God responds, "I sent you two rowboats and a helecopter, how much more saving did you need?"

Like all of you, I'm appauled by this. All throughout the Bible, God helps people to help themselves. He doesn't magically keep people from getting sick, He just gives them laws that will help them avoid illnesses. He doesn't magicaly prevent wars, He just guides them to victory (when they're faithful). He doesn't magically rebuild Jerusalem when it's time, He tells the people to do it themselves. God only intervenes Himself when the people actually can't do it.

I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in faith healing. I also believe in the power of modern medicine and doctors, and I believe God often gives us the solutions ourselves.

 

I know that was Ben Franklin who said that, but I can't remember the context. It may have been in "Poor Richard's" that Franklin first coined that one. Maybe you can remember, NOG, cuz I can't.

 

This is horrible. I don't care how literal-minded people are about their religions, but if their views endanger others' lives then it's criminal neglect. Even though I'm not a believer I can understand how praying can make some people more comfortable in the face of illness (and in such situations the family needs all the support they can get, regardless of the source), but you do this after getting your daughter to the hospital.

 

That was beautiful and sums up my thoughts also. If I could have repped you I would have.

 

In Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757, Ben Franklin writes "God helps those who help themselves." This is actually very, if subtly, different from what I wrote, as it suggests He leaves the helpless alone (contrary to the Bible). On top of that, it says that God waits for you to start working on it yourself, and then comes along and finishes up what you can't. Again, that's not what we see in the Bible. What we see in the Bible is that God starts the process by making the helpless not so helpless, by giving them opportunities to help themselves. Sure, he doesn't do it all Himself, but He actively encourages people to help themselves.

Again, it's a subtle difference, but one I think is important. For this topic, though, it's academic.

 

NOG - Yes, I see your point regarding Franklin (he never was very religious anyway, although fascinated by the subject).

 

I too believe in faith healing, in conjunction with the best human medical care that can be administered. It's just as easy to pray for someone while they're in a hospital bed as at home. This guy needs to be sent to prison for the rest of his life with a cellmate named Mr. Pain.

 

I'm not as convinced that we should be wasting money imprisoning a man who, by all accounts, is no real threat to society. He deserved his trial and he deserves conviction, but at the end of the day, we have a law abiding man who learned a very hard lesson and most assuredly won't do it again. Prison isn't the place for a man like him. Give him 20,400* hours of community service and put him on probation. Or something. Society has already paid for his crime and he's likely already learned from it, so there's no reason to ask society to pay for his incarceration. Prison, after all, costs money -- it's where we send real criminals that really threaten society, not foolish men who have absurd ideas about what their faith can and cannot do.

All that aside, what about the other people praying over the girl as she died before them? They were accessories, and I hope that they were arrested and charged, too.

* 20 hours a week, with one week off per year, for the next 20 years.

 

Wow, that a horrible story!

Was the daughter as religious as the parents? I'm just thinking that maybe she also thought it would have been a good idea to pray. Would the father then be guilty?

Is it the amish community that refuse blood transfusion? Would they be as liable as this case? (I know there's a difference between negligence and religious rights, but still).

 

Not really. Child neglect is a crime and against the law. This is a very grave case, where actual death was the result of the parents failing to provide proper care for their child. IMO, it's murder.

 

Drew, the article says that this guy still doesn't believe he was wrong

 

Like a few other people, why couldn't the family have prayed for her in the hospital? As a parent, I would never allow my child to become seriously ill, and not seek medical attention.

The guy said that he never believed his daughter would die, and that by NOT praying - by NOT going to god - and instead seeking assistance from some earthly source like a doctor, would be a form of idolatry. But if the guy seriously believes that, he's seriously insane, as that statement could apply to almost any situation you could imagine. If the guy got laid off, would he only pray to God? Would he refuse assistance from some earthly source like the unemployment office? What would happen if he ran out of food? Would he pray to God, or would he use some earthly source like a grocery store?

The other thing that infuriates me is that the mother - who was previously convicted and is also awaiting sentencing, said "I did not think it wa a crime to pray for my daughter." That just goes to show how out of touch these people are - she wasn't convicted of praying, she was convicted of gross negligence of the treatment of her daughter, and being complicit in her daughter's death.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not at all sure he's learned his lesson. You can't really assume that with religious fanatics. Although I do think a VERY long sentence of community service (especially if he's forced to work at a hospital as whatever people volunteer there for) would be better than 20 years in jail or whatever, our justice system doesn't seem to be set up for that kind of thing.

 

Exactly. The first thing I'd want to know if I were to show any leniency as a judge is: Does this guy have any other children?

 

Absolutely. That said, I'd still probably show him some leniency after I take his kids away. The man is a fool, not a criminal.

 

I find this infuriating too. Not only did the parents commit gross negligence, not only are they completely oblivious to what they've done and how easily it could have been avoided, they're actually convinced that the law is after them for praying. They don't seem to understand they would have got the exact same verdict (actually a probably much harsher verdict) had they sat there and watched their daughter die without even praying. This has nothing to do with what they did, it's all about what they didn't do, namely take their daughter to a doctor and get her diagnosed and treated.

 

I don't give the parents that much credit. They know why they were convicted -- they simply want to confuse the issue and push the blame somewhere else. I think it's calculated for an appeal; they bring 'freedom of religion' into their defense.

It is also possible that, in their grief, they are unwilling to accept the significant role they had in the death of their daughter (but I really don't think that's the case).