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Pirate Bay owners sentenced to prison

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Montresor, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Not if he doesn't have any hard evidence (and in the case of piracy, he likely doesn't). The police are not legally obligated to look into every incident reported to them, especially if there is no justification behind the claim. Person A claiming that Person B has pirated something is going to be insufficient evidence for the police to get a warrant to search Person A's house. The police cannot just come into your house on the request of some other person.

    In the US the police would probably send the guy away too.

    Do you know how many regular people (I'm not talking about organized conglomerates like Pirate Bay) I know of who have been busted for piracy in the US? Zero. I don't know anyone, I've never seen one reported the local news at night, nor have I read about one in the local paper. I'm telling you that it likely isn't in the back of their minds because there's practically no way through standard police work for these people to get caught.
     
  2. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Tal, tivo is basically just a fancier type of VCR recorder. My point is and I do not think you really can deny this that taping shows for later viewing or downloading them differs very little. For instance I am fairly sure that if possible the industry would try to ban the former as well. I know that in Sweden there is a special tax on empty tapes that then somehow gets distributed to the media companies somehow.

    As for the trial, the latest update is that it seems it is going to be pronounced as a mistrial. The judge in charge is accused of bias and it seems with good cause. He is a member of several copyright organisations. Google it for further information.
     
  3. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    ....and XM is on the verge of bankruptcy. Why? Not enough listeners leads to not enough ad revenue, let alone the commercial free stations they have (had? do they still have those?), which generate exactly $0.00 in ad revenue....and Howard Stern's $670 million contract isn't exactly helpful, either.
     
  4. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Potentially being able to fast forward through commercials on an episode by episode basis vs. downloading the entire series in one go and being able to watch it all without a single commercial interruption? Frankly, I don't think the two can be compared at all, let alone would I say that they "differ very little".

    There's such a tax on all recordable media everywhere as far as I know (so CDs, DVDs, etc. as well), but it obviously covers only a very small chunk of pirating. Most pirates do it on the fly these days anyway, watching it right off hard drives or flash media, so it's not like most of them even bother to burn anything any more.
     
  5. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG]
    I stand corrected. I guess I was just nitpicking about legal semantics, while the end result is the same.
    Not entirely true; apparently thousands of students have already been prosecuted in the States. Read about it in Tal's link:
    The industry is stepping up its legal activities worldwide. If they keep this up, someone you know will get caught someday. And people will start to worry...:mommy:
    I'm not looking forward to that day. I won't stop pirating, let alone delete my current stuff. But I'd have to be wary about who I talk to regarding music, movies, games, basically anything that can be linked to piracy.
    "Hey dude, did you see the new Battlestar?"
    [don't tell him you've already watched the whole season] "Eh no, I missed it, I think... What happened?"
    "You think!? It's repeated on wednesday, are you sure you want me to tell you about it?"
    "Oh no, of course not!" [stay calm, don't look nervous]
    "Then why did you just ask? Hmmm..."
     
  6. AMaster Gems: 26/31
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    Heh

    If true, too funny.
     
  7. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I wrote about it higher up and it is very true. I saw some interviews with the judge and he was adamantly declaring that there were no conflicts of interest or bias! He was looking quite nervous though. This is what and why I could never see myself on the same side as anti-pirates no matter how much I think people should get paid for their work. Generally and in my experience what is done in the name of copyright protection is a lot more immoral than any copyright infringement.

    I do not know what kind of hold the industry has on the worlds politicians but it must be big because they are screwing over their voters constantly and they generally try to do it as stealthily as possible. Like the attempt this week to pass a law that could make it possible to ban people from the internet. Insanity.
     
  8. Equester Gems: 18/31
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    it seems to be true, as the judge has publicly admitted it on Swedish radio and television. I am a bit baffled about how the judge can't see the conflict of interest, when he sits on the same boards as they who represent the entertainment industry...

    I am not for pirating, but I believe people should have a fair trial. And this doesn't seem fair.
     
  9. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Also in Tal's link, I found this, indicating that most people in the US aren't that concerned about getting caught for downloading pirated material:

    Also,

    If this is true, you have to wonder why he was allowed to rule in the case. Even if it was not public knowledge that he was biased, a judge she recuse himself from the case if he is biased. Even Supreme Court Justices sometimes recuse themselves from cases if, for example, they own stock from a company that is involved in the case.
     
  10. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I agree. In my business we can't audit a company's financial statements unless we are independent. There are a million rules and tests to see if we are independent. However, there is also a concept of independence in fact as well as in appearance. There has been many a job we have passed on because of the appearance. This judge may be independent in fact (I make no claim to knowing Swedish law), but he certainly doesn't look indepedent in appearance. I have to believe Swedish judges follow a similar train of thought.
     
  11. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    If you had read AMasters link you would have known that the questions you bring up is exactly why there are cries for retrial. The judge even removed one of the layjudges (we do not have juries in Sweden but instead three non law educated semi-professionals who are supposed to represent the average joe ie. layjudges) for being a member of one of the very organisation the judge himself was a member of so he was well aware of the implications. Seems like he just hoped no one would find out.
     
  12. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    I have to agree with Tal there.

    I agree that copyright sharks are way off base and so is the whole stuff with lobbied laws. You can't do anything these days because you violate someone' copyright in some way. Some doods take it really too far. On the basic level, though, authors should be paid and publishers have a place. It's just awful that big businesses can lobby their laws through because they're so powerful. I wonder, however, if the governments wouldn't grow strong and dangerous beyond our taste if it weren't for corporations. This way we at least have some balance.
     
  13. Tekee Gems: 1/31
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    I pirate always but I never speak of it ;)
    It is just a secret and yeah I agree that it should not be considered "legal" but no one should be fined or put in prison.
    because didn't you hear about the owners of some other torrent site who the record company wanted to fine 5000$ for each torrent of their product they hosted.
    They pulled this number out of their ass, that each torrent cost then 5000$ but whatever, not my problem. I will continue.
    This topic forced me to speak though.
     
  14. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    *** Start of posts moved from the EU parliament election thread***

    It interests me that the Internet takes such a forefront in this whole piracy issue.
    People have after all been pirating for years, everytime they record a song off the radio or film from TV and then copy that for a friend. The tools for piracy have always been there.

    Ive heared the argument that with TV and Radio the royalties are already paid. so how about this argument, I recorded the song Im sharing from radio and uploaded it to my computer, are the royalties still considered to be paid?

    The piracy debate is one which I dont think really has clear answers or points and you guys can probably argue it until someone goes to buy a blue dog.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2009
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Yea, that's the third (and final option). One that I'm personally not willing to consider anytime soon, but many people (and companies) have no choice in the matter. You can only push other people to pay for pirates so much - just like I can't put 15 ads on every page, the computer game prices have very little room for manoeuvring upwards. And if you're a small or independent game developer who is already selling games cheap compared to big commercial titles, it doesn't take much piracy to make the effort not worthwhile any more.

    Of course I have that choice. But it's a choice that I would potentially be considering only due to pirates, no one else. So much for "no consequences".

    And we're not talking about people who just aren't willing to pay for the product. That's a non-issue. The issue is people who believe that they are entitled to take and enjoy the product, but not pay for it. Gigantic difference between them and people who only decide to pass on the product by not buying it.

    Shoshino, you can only stretch what the royalties cover so far. They don't even fully cover the first recording (nowhere near, really), let alone subsequent re-recordings, re-distribution, digitalization and consequently endless enjoyment.

    And frankly, no, this isn't one of those debates that you could discuss in good faith forever. If we presuppose that taking something at the expense of another is wrong (no matter how insignificant the loss incurred is), the debate concludes very quickly.

    If you pocket even a single lollipop in a huge supermarket, it's understood that you are stealing and the supermarket has every right to involve the police. Despite the fact that the cost of one lollipop is insignificant for say Tesco as a whole.

    But if they started looking the other way if one person did it, then pretty soon most people would be doing it. And what started with lollipops would progress to more expensive items very quickly. You can call that greed, human nature, or just reality.
     
  16. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    Royalties are a phrase used by the industry to describe what they feel deserve, if a record producer feels that the artist deserves no more money then its not royalties anymore, as far as they are concerned.

    joacqin is quite right when he mentions that the music industry has much more power over the control and distribution of money, I have an AVCE in media studies and unit 19 of that course was media law, you want to see some of the crap that the music industry, well, any industry which produced an artists work gets away with because theyve got money. Unscrupulous advertising campaigns, illegal profit margins, unfair trading practices and threatening behaviour are just a few of the crimes that the music industry gets away with.

    I was pointing out that piracy has only recently taken the lime light, and the internet has been blamed, when people have been pirating music and video for years.

    Another situation, the BBC, I pay a licence fee which pays for the royalties to play music on the radio and to not only show but record and produce the programmes shown on the TV as well as any content on their web site, likewise I pay sky for their services which pays their royalties - sky+ allows me to record and download music and video from sky.
    Personal use is covered by royalties.
    Free TV/radio channels, are funded by advertising, which pays the royalties if we didnt watch/listen to the channel then no-one would advertise with them, hence the channel wouldnt exist. Without the licence fee, the BBC wouldnt exist, without advertising the public domain wouldnt exist, so.... how would the music industry survive without the radio creating a demand for its products?
    And how about when the industries con as much as possible, like when you buy a DVD for £15 and there are still advertiesments at the beginning of the movie (which you cant skip I might add) or when you buy a single or album and the inside cover has advertisements printed on it.
    The music industry will continue to make millions regardless of file sharing, its just too huge and too keen to exploit. They started the problem with their excessive prices, drop the prices to a reasonable sum, and maybe people will buy it instead of share it (in such a large scale).
    People say that the consumer would be missing out, not really, we're human, weve survived for along time without the modern industries of internet, video and mass music production, we'll find something else to do.

    most profit margins on music are so high, direct expense would be hard to prove. Likewise, you could argue that the expense is the profit that they would have recieved, well, I wouldnt have bought it either way so they wouldnt have gotten my money. you then argue that I shouldnt have been able to listen to that music, how is it no different from stanting at the side of the street and listening to a boy racer blasting his stereo, or listening to your neighbour blasting music on the other side of the wall?

    Not technically the same, a more real equivilent would be if a friend bought the lollipop, broke it down, figured out how to reproduce the same lollipop himself and then gave me one. I havent stolen anything - if anything, its my friend who broke the law.

    can I suggest passing all of this over to a new thread?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2009
  17. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    There already is one, or two or three but one fairly recent.
     
  18. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    No one here is saying that the record industry is perfect, or even very good. But if anyone should rebel against it, it's the artists. If they don't, it means it works for them. The general public gets to vote with their wallet if they don't want to support the system - but with pirates, it's a case of wanting to have the cake and eat it too - and nothing but. That doesn't work. A protest against high prices is only a protest until the protesters start throwing bricks through shops' windows and carrying the store goods home. As soon as that happens, it's a crime, period.

    I'm sure you can tell the difference between recording something from the radio or TV, where assembling even a modest complete collection of anything could take months or years, as opposed to online piracy, where you can download the entire life's work of artist X with a single click, or download the entire 12 seasons of show Y, etc. Today, anyone can easily pirate more content online in a single day than most people have in the past in their entire lifetimes. THAT's the difference.

    The cost-benefit ratio is exactly why everyone's allowed to record content from the radio. If it wasn't due to the promotional value that radio brings, it'd only be a huge loss for the artists. But hearing a song on the radio or downloading it in high quality for eternity as an mp3 are two very different things.

    OK, I'll grant you the DVD ads one as they bug me too, but seriously, you're grasping for straws, trying to find every single little thing that you can to justify piracy. Lowering prices might work to an extent, but to most people used to getting X for free, paying even $1 for it would be too much. So throwing around baseless assumptions is pointless. Pirates don't say "oh, since game X is too expensive now, I'll wait 3 months for the price to drop" - they go and torrent it 3 minutes later.

    We've gone through that non-argument so many times before that it's not funny any more, so I suggest you read the previous threads where we've discussed it at length. In short, the "they don't lose any money because I wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument is false. If you wouldn't pirate it, the chances are very high that you would view or listen to or enjoy the same material in some other way (TV, radio, cinema, library, etc.) that would involve either you or someone else paying for it, directly or indirectly.

    And it's different in your example because neither you, nor anyone else is behaving according to your example, for obvious reasons. So the difference is that you're presenting an imaginary situation, not a realistic one. There isn't a single person that would be satisfied with randomly catching (parts of) tunes through their neighbours wall, or on the street, or wherever. You and everyone else wants the same (or nearly) quality that you'd get by buying the product in the store and the same convenience of enjoying it that comes with the legitimate product.

    That's ridiculous. Try that argument when you pirate a game sold digitally, through a game download store. Most games can be bought like that today. The pirated game is then identical to the original product, only stripped of copy protection.

    Feel free to open a new thread or continue in the existing one(s) about piracy, but since you haven't come up with any new arguments that haven't already been discussed at length there, there isn't much point. I haven't written anything new here either, really.
     
  19. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    The artists are taking a stance, more and more of them are setting up their own small labels outside the controls of the big corporations. From what I have heard the artists are roughly divided in half on this issue with just as many seeing filesharing as something positive for their work as there are who see it as stealing their hard earned work. Even the ones who are quite upset at it grant that the possibility to download their work legally or otherwise have given them millions of new potential listeners and the more people listen to your music the more chance there is that someone might actually buy something from you. The "battle" is not waged by artists against filesharers, it is waged by cumbersome antiquitated (spelling) media conglomerates who are seeing their middle man cut disapear as the creators can communicate and distribute directly to the consumer.
     
  20. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Actually, I think the 50:50 situation is more along the lines of "filesharing is awesome, our music is getting heard and played!" for the artists while they're still struggling to get any sort of attention at all among dozens of thousands of competing artists. At such a time, every artist is happy just to have an audience. And there'll always be a vast, nay gigantic number of budding artists and just plain crap artists - and this bunch will always hail file sharing as their saviour.

    But the sentiment soon turns into "wait, wtf $#"$$#$!!/, 30.000 downloads of our album on Pirate Bay and only 300 copies sold?!?!" once they start releasing commercial albums...
     
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