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Pirate Bay owners sentenced to prison

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Montresor, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    There is no such thing as free information - someone always ends up paying for at least a part of either its creation, maintenance or availability.

    Second, as has been pointed out, we're talking about entertainment here, not any vital information that someone couldn't live without.

    Third, there are perfectly legal outlets that make various forms of entertainment available at heavily discounted prices (or practically free), like TV and libraries.

    Fourth, the GPL and other free distribution licences were created as an alternative to the more restrictive copyright, and there are many products (entertainment and otherwise) available without you requiring to pay anything. Those who do wish to invest their time and effort into products that the users will be able to take and distribute freely have the option to do so. Not surprisingly, the majority of entertainers do not wish to do that, because producing entertainment is not a hobby for them so that they wouldn't care if they get paid or not, but their livelihood. Which means that they only eat if they get paid.

    Fifth, the pirates have no sensible argument whatsoever to base their demands for free entertainment on except for the fact that largely they haven't been prosecuted for it thus far because it has been impractical to do so. That will hopefully change in the future, because that's what it will take to restore some semblance of order to the current chaos.

    More like an update and clarification to keep up with the times and new material reproduction technologies. And to close an obvious loophole.

    No, but he loses a potential sale. And no matter how you define a potential sale, it never is and never will be NO SALE. Even if you value a potential sale at only 10% of the actual sale (which is more than realistic), money has been lost. That is a fact clearly evident in the entertainment industry crisis that's started with the mass availability of high-speed Internet and the consequent ease of pirating literally everything.

    If Jack wants to pirate a movie because he's heard it's good, there's at least a 1:10 chance that if he isn't able to pirate it, he will either a) go to the cinema to see it, b) watch it on TV, c) buy the DVD, d) borrow it from the library (where possible), etc. These are all well established, legitimate ways that involve payment for the said content at some point by someone.

    That sounds about as honest at those pleas in pirate .nfo's... "please buy the game if you like it, though you don't really have any reason to because your pirated copy will probably work just fine". Yea, um... most people don't pirate because they want demos (those are usually available for most games anyway) but because they want free games that they would otherwise have to pay for.

    Again, why is it absurd? If you spent 20 years of your life writing a book for instance, you'd very likely want to enjoy the benefits for your entire lifetime as well as allow at least one or two generations after you to benefit from it.

    I don't see anything unreasonable there. And again, with 99,9% of entertainment that is being pirated today, it wouldn't matter if the copyright lasted 100, 50 or 25 years. Pirates want what'll come out tomorrow today, and they often get it (due to leaks which make warez in many cases appear weeks or months before the legal release).

    So arguing about the copyright lasting 100 or 150 years as the cause for the culture of entitlement really goes beyond absurd. To the egos of today, it makes no difference whatsoever.

    In the last century, very little has changed - mostly updates and clarifications necessary to keep up with the increasing life expectancy and advances in technology which made it easier to break the copyright. All perfectly normal and understandable.

    That's exactly what I'm talking about. Some (few) democratic countries have a culture of appeasement as a solution to non-violent crime; turning a blind eye to what is at the present too hard or impractical to sanction. But those are exceptions to the rule, like legalizing marijuana. Not the norm in most "normal" countries by far.

    Btw, what you're quoting means that you're allowed to make backup copies of THINGS YOU LEGALLY BUY. It doesn't even remotely mean that you're allowed to make more copies of already illegal copies.
     
  2. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Copyright infringement has been an intregal part of copyright laws for several centuries. Infringement at its core has always been equated with theft and is subject to criminal prosecution (read the link you provided). You cite changes to laws which have come about due to changes to technology not really any new law concepts. I find it amazing so many people seem to take the stance "when the government can't keep up with technology, they're incompetant;" but when the government actually does keep up with technology it seem to be a violation of rights -- ridiculous.

    As technology changed, so has the requirements for copyright prosecution. Gone are the easy times of finding a printing press that's churning out copies of the latest novel (without giving any royalties to either the publishing house or author). Now we have a trail of 1's and 0's which are doing the same thing. Whether you choose to download a copy of Harry Potter that's been typed or scanned into a document or a copy of Fallout 3 you are doing the exact same thing as taking the illegally printed novel. It is the content that is covered by a copyright and without a valid license you cannot use the content.

    What does "seems to be in tension" mean? I've never heard the expression. My first post and all my posts have been very consistent -- pirating software is illegal. Your justifications (as well as most supporting piracy) have been "because I want to, it's okay." "I would not have bought it anyway, even though was an enjoyable game that me and my friends have spent hundreds of hours playing." And now, "well the government changed the rules after I started playing, so I don't have to follow those rules." Pretty weak, and self-centered arguments. The only valid and honest argument for the individual using pirated software is "I did it because I could and didn't want to pay for the software" -- 'generation of entitlement' hit it on the head.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  3. Proteus_za

    Proteus_za

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    @Taluntain

    10% is not realistic, figures I heard pegged it at closer to 0.1%. Yes, 1 in a 1000 - I think it was the developer of a game who added copy protection to his game, and was able to somehow correlate the increase in sales caused by former pirates who had opted to pay for the game. I think he said about 1 in every 1000 pirates bothered to pay for his game. Not encouraging. The rightsholders would have you believe the sale was almost guaranteed, but its anything but - people are just opportunists who will take something if its free.

    I dont agree with piracy, but I hate - repeat HATE - the rightsholders. The thing is, I view it as an imbalance, and I'm not sure how to correct it. On the one hand, piracy is wrong m'kay. Artists and developers deserve to earn money for their work, piracy does harm the economy at the end of the day (although not to the magnitude the rightsholders would have you believe). If the pirates could come up with a system like open source development, in which everyone contributes and allows his/her work to be freely used, it would be fine. But thats not how it works - pirates consume but dont produce.

    That being said, the legal framework and most governments are too closely tied to the big corporations who have a vested interest in anti-piracy measures that go far beyond the original intent of copyright. A copyright of 95 or 120 years just isnt realistic - the point of copyright was that the author had a good long amount of time in which to make money from his creation, and then it was released into the public domain for all of us to enjoy. This idea that everything must be owned and nothing must be free is a recent invention, and benefits the corporations more than it does the artists. There is also the ACTA treaty - a secret treaty being negotiated behind our backs. The corporations are allowed to comment, but civil rights organisations cant. Does that seem fair to you?

    Before you say "Well its good that way, they own the rights so they should make the laws", take a step back. The record companies, if they could, would force you to buy 2 copies of a song if you wanted one on your HiFi and one on your iPod. They want to make it illegal to sell games (hence DRM) so that they can get the money from all and any sales. They want to change the laws to restrict you, the consumer, under the pretense that piracy is so incredibly harmful, when in fact they know quite well that piracy isnt as bad as they say, they are just greedy. Why else would they fight a battle like this against the pirate bay? They must have known that they couldnt win, I suspect it was a publicity stunt to get people on their side. It backfired.

    And one last thing.... theres a difference between what artists want and what the corporations want. I suspect most artists would be a lot less extreme in their views than the corporations. Plus, if you want to benefit artists, go to their gigs - since they dont own the copyrights for their material, they wont get most of the money anyway.
     
  4. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    That's an interesting statistic if it's true, but not overly surprising. This is speculation on my part, but I suspect the reason pirates don't buy something even if they can't steal it is that they'll simply pirate something else. But if they can't pirate anything, they would be more inclined to purchase. Not in the quantities that they steal it, of course, but at least they'll pay for something.
     
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I seriously doubt that (I'm not talking about direct sales vs. no sales!; I listed several examples which don't involve direct payment). And frankly, even if it was 0,001%, it makes no difference. If the overall losses are valued at several billion vs. several million, they're still huge. The point is, they DO exist. The hard-core pirates argue that not a single cent is lost, which is obviously either ignorant or intentionally dishonest.

    Also, generalizing about this based on the experience of a single game publisher with a game which may or may not have been that good is not even remotely conclusive.

    It benefits the corporations and individuals exactly the same. Look, intellectual property in the end is very similar to physical property. Someone can decide to sell, lease or hoard it. Someone has to make it, someone can even decide to make it available to the public for free. But the point is, even with the current copyright laws, the IP rights are not indefinite. And yet, not at all oddly enough, all the physical property rights are (for all practical intents and purposes). If your great, great, great, great, great ... grand father built or bought a castle, the proper heir of the same family still owns it 1000+ years later. And while in such extreme cases there is a legitimate question of public interest in making that property freely accessible, in all countries which respect personal property and have a normal legal system, the castle's owners decide whether they will open it up for tourists, their friends, their relatives or only themselves - and under what conditions.

    Yet with the copyright laws, the creator's and his or her legal heirs' rights to the IP are taken away by the state after a relatively short amount of time (1-2 human life spans) and the property is forced into the public domain.

    Now try to imagine inheriting your great-grand mother's house. But wait - it's only got 15 more years on it before the state confiscates it and kicks you out, puts in a small office and distributes the rooms inside as it sees fit. ANYONE would be very pissed off. The house is yours by legal right, after all. But nope - the law says otherwise.

    That's roughly the situation with copyright. And while the authors accept the fact that copyright is not indefinite (even when today there is little reason for it not to be), you're certainly not going to convince any of them that it should be shorter than it already is. Just like you wouldn't want your claim to any inherited property shortened to an X number of years before you need to pack your bags.

    No one is going to argue AGAINST examples like those, which are clearly bad practice. For example, if you buy a CD, it should be playable in your car, house or portable player. But it is completely irrational to oppose copyright based on such isolated examples which really have nothing to do with the idea of copyright. It's misdirected anger. You're arguing against unreasonable restrictions on the use of the material, not against copyright.

    As for "greedy", that's very relative. Corporations exist to make money, so calling them "greedy" is like calling water wet. Corporations that don't make money go under. So any such labels are purely emotional.

    They want Pirate Bay closed because it is the largest distribution center for pirated material on the Internet. That is REALLY obvious reason enough.

    And I'm not sure where you think it backfired. Among pirates and the general population of a country where piracy has been tolerated and even promoted thus far? Well, naturally. Every child will cry if you take away their lollipop.
     
  6. Proteus_za

    Proteus_za

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    The point is, such figures are used to "show" how harmful piracy is to the industry, when in fact no one really knows. All we know is that the corporations overstate it by a significant margin, and its in their interest to do so. If they get the laws made the way they want them, they make more money. I dont think any pirate would deny that there is some loss of money, but they (rightly) deny that a particular case of piracy is a guaranteed lost sale. Its not - there might have been the chance of a sale, but it was never guaranteed.

    Does it? Who makes more money from them? Also remember that it depends on the contract that the artist signed - I wouldnt be surprised if the artist got zero after a certain point. Who says that this what the artists really wants - for his copyrights to be defended with vehemence 20 years after he wrote the book? Not all authors even feel that way about copyright, I mean especially after such a long period of time.

    Besides which, theres another stakeholder that you missed - the public. Do you think that it would benefit society if schools still had to pay royalties in order to use Shakespeare's work to teach English? At some point, it is fitting and right that copyrighted material become usable by anyone. If you havent made your money in say 50 years at the absolute most, then you never will. To use rather blunt language, its a case of "sh*t or get off the pot".

    This of course another strawman argument - trying to equate material property to intellectual property. Same with piracy = theft, not quite. Someone could seize my copyright after 50 years and all they would take is a source of income. As I said, if I wrote a book but made no money from it in 50 years from date of publication (not the date I started writing it!), I would accept that it was a failure. If anyone subsequently made a lot of money from it after that date, that would be fine with me. I had my chance.

    With material property its quite different, since there is one and only one castle. Not the case with IP - there are as many different copies of the book as you want. In fact, the example you cited would more correctly correspond to copyrighting the plans of the castle and preventing anyone else from building their own. Fair enough, that would be fine. After 50 years, I'd release the plans and let anyone build my castle, as long as they paid for the expenses and did it on their own land. What you describe - the family castle being confiscated - is more similar to a writer only ever producing one single hardcopy of his work, not publishing it, and then having the government take that one copy after 50 years. If he only made one copy and didnt publish it, its his problem.

    The problem is, yes everyone expects corporations to be greedy, its what they do and its what they are. However, I draw the line when they dont play fair, when they bend the rules of the game to suit themselves. This is exactly what corporations are fond of doing. The ideas of a free and fair market dictate the competition should keep prices down and innovation flowing, but in practice, companies dont like competition so they frequently collude with each other or attempt to bend the laws to suit themselves. Actually, not attempt, they frequently succeed.

    I mean... the thing is, in a capitalist system, everyone is expected to be greedy, but somehow people are still surprised when corporations cheat in order to succeed.

    This has generated more positive press for piracy and torrents than they themselves have done for years. Look at the coverage of the trials - the record companies were humiliated on the first day, their lawyer showed up in court looking like he bought his law degree last week. Membership of the pirate party has increased drastically since then, now making them the 5th most popular party in the country. These guys have become martyrs, and they likely wont stay long in prison. I give them 6-9 months before they are out again. Besides the fact, the Pirate Bay website itself is still operational, as are dozens of other torrent sites.

    Moves like this seldom, if ever, work, because of the Streisand Effect.
     
  7. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    This is quite irrelevant really but I must say it. When I read the opinions of people like Taluntain I get this urge to go out and pirate stuff just for the heck of it. Purely out of spite. They are so intransigient and so completely certain of their own righteousness that even if you really don't pirate stuff you get the urge to do it purely out of spite. This is of course a very childish reaction but did anyone ever think people grew out of being childish?

    This reaction on a larger scale is what the big media corporations face with their hounding of individuals. I personally do not pirate much at all, basically the odd tv series and soft entertainment movies (and a bit of adult entertainment) and I buy the stuff I really want because I want to reward people creating quality stuff. When I see and read about how the industry reacts to the new technology though I just feel all my sympathies go to the pirates. I am sure you will belittle and say how stupid this is but this is how a lot of people feel. As for the laws, I am confident that within 20 years they will have changed one way or the other either that or the internet will be completely closed and regulated.
     
    martaug likes this.
  8. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    No one reasonable is saying that every pirated item is a guaranteed lost sale. But I've seen scores of pirates vehemently claim that no money is being lost due to piracy, "victimless crime", etc. That doesn't fly.

    Of course it depends on the contract as well. Again, the artists have a whole variety of options at their disposal as far as the free availability of their works goes. No one is forcing them to keep it longer than they want. I've never heard of someone wanting to release something for free and being prevented from doing so. It's certainly not even a minor problem.

    No one is campaigning for making copyright indefinite, so speaking about strawmen... I see no reason whatsoever why anyone would need to shorten the length of copyright, given that the average lifespan today is significantly longer than 100 years ago, that piracy is rampant and that good material keeps being used far longer than historically and is preserved indefinitely. The only reasonable cause of action given the circumstances is extension.

    Well, you keep saying that piracy isn't theft. I disagree. So there we are. Also, your sentiment is not the sentiment of more than a minute fraction of IP producers, who don't need to be bound by copyright if they don't wish to anyway. Really, lots of straw around here...

    I'm not sure you quite understand how copyright works. All the copies of any book are treated the same as the original copy. I'm not a lawyer so I can't supply you with the proper legal terms, but for all intents and purposes, there is a single book in your argument as well. There aren't "as many copies as you want". There are only as many legal copies as the book's author and/or publisher wants, is being able to or allows to publish. And all the rights are always linked right back to the original book.

    Your plans analogy is completely false in other respects too. Building just one new castle from scratch takes an incomparable amount of resources to taking an existing text or any other easily reproduced work and making millions of copies with practically no cost or effort whatsoever involved.

    There are plenty of (free) alternatives available... and if they really were that good, the artists would be using them massively and the pirates wouldn't need to pirate anything. But the reality is, they're often neither very good, nor popular, only a fraction of even aspiring artists want to use them, and the material isn't good enough for pirates anyway.

    That's the fantasy vs. reality view of the situation.

    As I said, walking into a lion's den and expecting a tea party is naturally unrealistic. And since Sweden is one of the countries with the least regard for copyright online and the population has been spoiled into believing that pirating is their prerogative, any attempts at weaning them off the pirate teat will result in massive tantrums. That's completely expected.

    Oh, and the press loves martyrs and pleasing the masses... that's what sells the news. But as several times before, Sweden's international credibility is on the line - with much more eyes on it now than in the past. If it fails again, it'll just have that much more trouble in the future.
     
  9. Taza

    Taza Weird Modmaker Veteran

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    I just refrain from posting. :p
     
  10. Proteus_za

    Proteus_za

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    We'll have to agree to disagree, since, as I said, and you agreed, piracy does not imply a guaranteed lost sale, hence nothing concrete is lost. Not even money (in 99% of cases). Have you done a survey of IP producers? Can I see your statistics to prove that they agree with you on the theft issue?

    The other problem is that it often has nothing to do with IP producers, it has to do with rightsholders, who, it has already been shown, are far more vicious and less concerned about the public good.

    If you insist that piracy is theft, I would say we need a better definition of the word theft. Clearly, it is a crime, but it doesnt deprive anyone of the thing in question.

    Not quite - when you buy a game, you dont buy the game, you buy a license to use it. I'm not sure if the idea of an original and a copy is even relevant anymore anyway, since almost all books are produced on computer, and the question of what the original is and what is not is irrelevant. What is original of course is the idea, the story, the plot, the lyrics, whatever it is that is copyrighted. Hence, there is no single book, there is only the intellectual property (but you know this...), so there is a definite difference. One is concrete, one is abstract.

    The point I was trying to make is that, if someone takes my castle, they take my home, my only home. If someone takes my IP, what have they really taken? Nothing physically at all. None of the books printed when it was in copyright are affected at all. All it means is that someone else can now print as many copies as they want. Just as with the castle plans after 50 years or whatever - whoever wants to can now build their own.

    Trying to equate physical property to intellectual property invariably fails for this reason - it costs more resources (well except time) to produce physical property than intellectual property. One is abstract, the other is not. One cannot be "stolen" at all, in the sense that I cannot be deprived of my copyright by piracy. People can pirate my work as much as they want, but I would still own the IP and any physical copies are unaffected. Its the reverse with physical property - as soon as someone steals the physical property, I lose it, permanently. They are not the same at all.

    Does the effort involved in the reproduction influence whether it is copyright theft or not? Say, if I download The Lord of the Rings extended edition Blu Ray via a 56k modem is that not still copyright theft? What matters is that, in the case of the castle plans, someone uses original IP (my castle plans) to produce their own castle - a reproduction. If its unauthorized, that is, if they dont pay me $1 billion billion, its illegal. Got nothing to do with whether the thing produced by the reproduction is physical or not. Same with photocopying a textbook.

    Actually, the UK is considered the worst of the developed countries as far as copyright law goes - ours is the most backward. I think thats in respect to the users though. Sweden is an extremely progressive country, in fact I suspect TPB being there had more to do with privacy and freedom than it had to do with lack of respect for copyright.

    I'll agree that stating you want all media to be free is a bit childish, but I think you are using hyperbole in claiming that they have no regard for copyright. Perhaps they are just sick of the corporations?

    Well, yes concerning international credibility, unfortunately the recording industry is well known for wielding its host government like a weapon in this regard. Hence the ACTA treaty - should any part of Sweden's law be found "lacking", I'm sure a nice treaty that ignores civil liberties in favour of profits will rectify that.
     
  11. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    I'll agree with joaquin on this score -- the present system isn't working. Artists and creators need to find other ways of getting reimbursed for their works, as piracy cannot be completely stopped. But it can be made more difficult and those who pirate to a ridiculous degree can be punished -- but it won't solve the problem completely.

    To summarize my position on this, I'll give a few thoughts:

    1: Just because something is easy to steal doesn't make it right to steal it.

    2: Just because a large company acts immorally doesn't make it right to steal from it.

    3: Just because an activity has been going on for years and years does not make that activity moral. Nor does it mean that the activity should not be engaged by the law. For example, drunk driving was very common 40 years ago. A concerted effort was made to educate people about the immorality of that act, and the penalties for it were increased. Drunk driving is not as common today, but it still exists. We will never eradicate it completely. Does that mean we should stop penalizing or condemning it? Of course not.

    4: Just because a story, song, game, or picture exists does not give one the automatic right to have a copy of that piece of intellectual property.
     
  12. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    How about a definition from Merriam Webster?
     
  13. Merlanni

    Merlanni Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    No lawmaker could possible have foreseen the internet. So there we are, decades ago, when many of those laws were made. You get the picture....

    Back to the now. People who use pirated games know there are stealing. People who use copied versions of windows know they are stealing. We can speak whit each other about the how, the why and whatever, but it remains a modern form of theft.
     
  14. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG]
    I stated another argument earlier: it benefits society. Take a look on the streets here in Holland, and compare it to the ghetto horror stories in the States. Better access to illegally downloaded entertainment surely plays its part. I can walk around anytime anywhere in my country, and I feel safe.
    That's why I say always download everything. I'm considering buying me some ThePirateBay merchandise. A nice T-shirt:D.
    I try, but I certainly have a hard time convincing you guys:p
    funny you mention that. Didn't Bill Gates steal a large part of the original Windows program from Macintosh, back when he was working for them? Now he founded his own company with stolen software, and expects us to pay through the nose for it. Talk about hypocrisy:lol:
     
  15. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    You'll have to do better than simply make such an assertion to be convincing. :lol: I'm sure that illegal activity is what makes Holland such a great place :rolleyes:
     
  16. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Exactly - how does the ability to freely pirate games make Holland safer? It's absurd.

    Isn't this largely a semantic point? Regardless of what term you use to describe piracy, it's a violation of intellectual property law. You could call it a pink dragon if you want - it doesn't change the fact that it's illegal.
     
  17. Proteus_za

    Proteus_za

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    I never said it did, I said its not theft. Taluntain believes otherwise. Read my posts and Taluntains for more information.
     
  18. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    I actually was in Amsterdam and the Hague a few weeks ago and saw the streets. I have to say that most of Amsterdam was far from impressive. Also the cyclists seemed quite dangerous. :p

    The Hague though was another matter and a lot better. Amsterdam is the only place so far where I've been openly offered to buy cocaine on the streets and that's not really a compliment. The overwhelming liberalism towards sexuality and drugs (and not just soft drugs) are not something I found overly comforting in there. However, people have different preferences and I can see how someone who has been brought up in that enviorment would see anything less as restraining or even oppressive.

    As for the copyrights themselves. I've expressed my opinion quite a few times on these boards allready but in my opinion there are two sinners here. Internet Piracy certainly is not sustainable if legalized and costs a lot through copy protections and other security methods which usually leaves those suffering who don't pirate and gives the pirates more excuses to pirate even more than they did before. Usually when a company makes one little mistake, like say publishes a bad/buggy game and the pirate buy it they feel justified to download the rest of their publications because now they are a "bad company". Justification which is utterly ridiculous but which I see all too often. I personally am not blameless for pirating and have done so with many expensive programmes I use to make my studies easier, I find little moral trouble with this since my Uni pays for those licences anyhow and I could never afford them, and it just saves me the trouble of travelling to the uni pc classes to work.

    There is however one thing I don't like with producers and that's keeping on to practically useless copyrights which they have no intention of comercially using. Basically I would like to see all titles which are produced to be put legally downloadable after they reach the age of five years and are not avaliable for purchase. Letting information and enterntainment rot in limbo without being accessable by anyone without any intention of ever using it for commercial gain again is in my opinion also immoral and serves little purpose. Therefore I think the ages of copyrights should be regulated better and made shorter.

    What I find really sad in this piracy discussion is often the complete inflexibility of both sides. Either you should be able to pirate anything at will or then you should not be able to download anything without the permission of the publisher, ever. I find a compromise might be a better way of solving the problem. Removing piracy won't happen and I find complete legalization to be ridiculous.

    EDIT: With this model you'd really reap the benefit of both sides in my opinion. Since by far the biggest profit from a product is made during the first months of sales and I'd bet far over 90% of most products sell during the first final years I'd find the five year limit quite adequate, of course if the company saw further potential it would be allowed to extend this copyright, provided that they continue selling their product, offer technical support, make updates for new operational systems etc etc. The free flow of information would also be satisfied, allthough with some delay.
     
  19. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG]
    People are entertained. They have other things to do than hang around on the streets all day. If they want entertainment, it isn't beyond their financial means to obtain. The difference between rich and poor is less striking, making it easier to find happiness with what you have (infringed, i know). When commercialism constantly tempts people with unaffordable things, it makes them unhappy. Am I making any sense to you? Is there any chance you'll ever admit that it has benefits? I admit it's illegal, and morally dubious, so meet me half way here.:bigeyes:

    I made a comparison to the state of Israel in the last page. I'm disappointed that there was no reaction:o. Right-wingers often rally in defense of the state of Israel, so I thought it might be something you could relate to. Perhaps it would get people thinking - a reminder that the world isn't black and white:square:, but gray.

    @morgoroth
    I went out with 2 filipina girls a while back, and was showing them my lovely city. One of them constantly claimed to smell drugs in the air, while the other smelled nothing. Neither did I. They come from a very conservative background, and were warned in advance about dangers in Amsterdam. They actually came to the city in a sort of thrillseeker sentiment. What I'm trying to say, is that their preconceptions coloured their perceptions of the city. In actual fact, the Hague is a far worse city than Amsterdam, with the Schilderswijk, one of the worst neighborhoods in Holland. They suffer from higher unemployment and poor education (one of the only large cities without a university, while A'dam has 2 large ones). I'd hazard a guess, and say that your preconceptions coloured your experiences too.
    It's just as easy to score some harddrugs in the Hague too, I'm sure.
     
  20. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    No, it does not automatically follow that since no guaranteed sale is involved, nothing concrete is lost. I thought we got past that fallacy already. The percentage of damages is definitely quantifiable if a wide enough research to measure it properly is conducted.

    I don't see the majority of IP producers of any branch of entertainment campaigning for your cause. Actually, I don't even see even a considerable minority of them doing it. If you do, please show me.

    I wasn't talking about games but about books... though the situation is similar enough.

    Who said it was your only home? It could be only one of a number of castles you own. And again the "nothing was physically removed from the inventory" non-argument. You could keep going in circles with that one forever. If you refuse to acknowledge property other than what you can hold in your hands, the argument is pointless.

    That obviously depends entirely on the property in question. And we're not talking about the theft of single properties. I also never said that they're the same, but that they're similar. A widely pirated IP is worth less to the author than if it weren't. Period. The fact that pirates can't steal the ownership as well means little in practice.

    Pirates aren't building anything. They are merely indefinitely copying the same content that the first pirate put up. There is no production involved, unlike with a castle. Copying any online content is near-instantaneous and dependent solely on the connection/hard drive speed of the pirate(s) involved. It is only a matter of time before the connections become fast enough to allow instant copying of gigabytes of data.

    The process with physical property, say building a castle, will never be anywhere near as fast.

    Anyway, this discussion was originally about what is happening today and what is actually possible and feasible... your analogy is neither, so I don't see any point in delving into it further.

    I said copyright of material available online... overall is another story. The online sphere can be (and usually is) quite different from the real life one. As for privacy and freedom - countries which know their definition also know that their freedoms end where another's rights start.

    Then they're barking at the entire forest instead of just a few mighty oaks...

    Oh, I dunno... they've had little influence in the worst online offenders like Sweden thus far.

    Everyone's been looking for the mystical better "new way"... unfortunately, to date, no one has come up with a better one. Very likely because there isn't a better one. What's more feasible and realistic than reinventing the wheel is to actually start sanctioning or incapacitating illegal file sharing, which is relatively easily doable on the ISP end at this point. Looking for the "new way" already means bowing to the pirates and anyone who thinks that they can come up with a business model that will sound better than "PAY NOTHING; ABSOLUTELY FREE FOR ALL; TAKE WHAT YOU WANT AND AS MUCH AS YOU WANT" to the majority of pirates is only fooling themselves. It is a smoke screen to divert attention, nothing else. "You run off and bust your head how to make money in a different way while we keep pirating, and once you come up with that great new way (if ever), we'll still keep pirating".

    That is a non-argument... giving anything valuable to anyone always benefits them in some way. But I can't use that as an excuse to steal the pension of my wealthy neighbour even if I wanted to distribute it among starving children.

    And if you actually think that there's a direct correlation between ghettos and pirating then... wow. Just... wow. :shake: You know, people in the US don't pirate that much less than us over here.
     
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