First U.S. Citizen Taken by Pirates Since 1804

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O.o

Well that was interesting. Got any other links like that?

 

Hearing this from you, Ragusa, is actually a little surprising. Not terribly, mind you, and I don't mean this to be insulting, I just didn't expect you to bring up the 'kill the rather than civilize them' position.

All in all, I hate to see natino-building thrown out the window without concideration (don't know if that's what you were doing or not), but I agree that Somalia is not likely to respond favorably to even the most carefully developed, internationally organized nation-building program. MAYBE if there is a neighboring country they consider something of a brother-nation rather than a potential enemy or a stranger, there may be some hope of doing it through that nation.

At the same time, though, I do believe aid is needed in the region. They turned to piracy because they had problems, and cracking down on piracy without solving those problems (which we, or at least some of us, caused btw) isn't going to help things too much. Here, we essentially need national rehabilitation, if such a thing can be done.

 

Arrrr Matey!

I am not for killing them. I am for doing something against Somali violent crime that is spilling over the border. And it is sensible to address that as violent crime, in a limited if resolute manner. Police can't do it, so there is no option but to use the Military who can. Let's not over intellectualise the matter, sometimes a pirate is just a pirate, and a cause just an excuse. I am no peacenick. I did my military service; I think that sometimes there is no alternative but to use force. It is just that I am conservative, and that involves respecting the law - domestic and international (which is why I opposed the Iraq war; it was illegal).

I am weary of nation building, especially the more ambitious recent attempts to try to persuade the Afghans that they are a nation, or to turn Iraq into a neo-liberal Switzerland at the Gulf. Nation building usually involves bringing democracy, which inevitably involves compromise. It will not work if for the local groups politics is a zero-sum game where any compromise is a net loss. That is even more so when the underlying root causes for the failed state remain unaddressed, or when the parties aren't fought out yet, or when foreign governments prop up 'their' party. Democracy is not for everyone. Some peoples are better served with a king or a tribal council, Islamic council or whatnot.

There is an alternative to use of force (and nation building) that could also pacify Somalia, but that probably won't be acceptable in the US. Let the Islamic Courts win. Iirc they even oppose piracy. Islam, religion, transcends tribal borders. The Islamic Councils have the potential to gain enough legitimacy among the population to be able to deal with the local warlords. The price for that would be Islamic rule, the Sharia, a probably poor human rights record, and poor treatment of woman. Still, it would be a considerable improvement over the current complete lawlessness. Stability is something that is seriously underrated by the Western freedom advocates. For a sheep, it's freedom in anarchy is worth little in the presence of equally free wolves.

 

I don't know if this is possible. According to reports, the pirate captured is just 16 years old. I know that the US Supreme Court ruled a few years ago, that you cannot impose the death sentence on someone who was a minor (i.e., under 18) at the time they committed the crime. I don't know if or to what degree this law applies to people who are not US citizens, who commit a crime against a US citizen in international waters.

 

Well, 4 more ships were just taken by pirates today near the port of aden.

 

You've gotta be kidding me. At this point the shipping companies need to start routing their ships far away from the Somali coast, and placing armed guards (trained armed guards, mind you, not just sailors who got a 20 minute course) on those merchant vessels. I believe it was T2Bruno who once said on these boards that one purpose of the US navy was to keep shipping lanes open. They should send a whack more ships there and start killing any Somali "fishermen" who are out on the water with mortars and machine guns on their boats. Or at least escorting the merchant ships.

 

Well, to the extent that Ragusa's link on the previous page (post #15) has any truth to it, that may be just what Somalia wants.

 

I would say that they should hug the coast of Yemen after coming through that little strait -- I'm sure they could patrol that strait and the coast of Yemen, and it'd be worth the extra fuel rather than risk men, equipment and profits going anywhere near Somalia. It'd also probably end up being cheaper than routing around the south tip of Africa. They could use that money saved to pay for security.

 

For those who would like to read the AP story, here it is

This part really suprised me

So thats at least 20 ships(16+4) that need to be rescued/reclaimed.

 

Ships have a sovereign affiliation. They basically are the jurisdiction of the country to which they are flagged. When a company chooses to flag their vessel with another country that company has lost the rights that come with being flagged in the US. Including protection by the US military.

The US Navy will protect US flagged vessels and keep the sea lanes open. But there are simply not enough Navy ships (or money) to protect all commercial ships from all acts of piracy.

 

Now that's interesting -- if a US navy vessel saw a ship under another country's flag that was under assault, would they intervene? Common sense says they would, but perhaps international law would restrict their ability to help. Or perhaps US military policy would. Help me out, Navy boy!

 

That would depend on the definition of under assault. If another vessel is firing upon the commercial ship, then yes. If the commercial ship asks for aid prior to being boarded, then yes. Any country's Navy would intervene if it does not entail boarding another vessel. Once the action requires boarding another vessel the rules of engagement change. Many naval vessels are not capable of boarding another vessel and engaging an armed enemy. Most governments require approval at the highest levels to board an ocean going vessel in international waters.

 

Anyone catch Jon Stewart's Daily Show yesterday? Hysterical coverage of the pirates. He was talking about all of the pirating activities near Somalia and how many ships were taken. This time, when the pirates tried to take an American ship, they failed to realize one small thing: Stewart pulls out an American flag and yells, "These colors don't run mother fers!" I can't do it justitce in print - you can see the whole thing here.