Death to Free Speech in the Netherlands

Remove all ads!

Personally I'd prefer that politicians would not have to surround themselves with the secret service. That's one of the benefits of living in a small country.

 

Wasn't a politician killed in your part of the world not too long ago Morgoroth? I thought it was just some nut case who walked up to her and killed her.

I'd rather have the protection....

 

What does this have to do with the constitution? Is it not the job of the Secret Service to protect the President and VP? Any idiot should realize that if you go up to either of them with the intent of having a confrontation that the Secret Service will be all over your ass. This guy should have been arrested for being an idiot.

As to free speech, how dare you claim I don't support it! The guy has every right to stand there with a sign (assuming the mall allows it), write a letter to his newspaper, or possibly even stand on a chair and scream at the top of lungs his opinion (once again assuming the mall allows it and that he isn't disturbing the peace). To think you could go up to either the Pres or VP and have a confrontation is foolish. As I said in an earlier post, they would do the exact same thing to someone foolish enough to do so to Obama or Biden. This "political hero" is doing nothing but wasting the courts time. I actually feel that I am owed an apology.

 

I agree with you, T2. The protection is necessary. In this case, Mr Howards just made one comment and walked on. Sometime later, with his 8 year-old son, he was approached by an SS agent. IMO, that really stinks. I can only imagine how that situation would be with my kids. I hope he sues the dog turds out of those SOB bullies.

TGS - Which part of the word "SPEECH" gives you trouble?

 

Exactly, to think otherwise is foolish.

 

Agreed, but in the Cheney case, the SS did allow Howards to get close. So what's the reasoning here? - they realized they goofed up, and in their embarrassment, decided 10 minutes later to arrest the guy to make it look like they were on the ball?

 

I think we can all agree that when any situation like this moves from the verbal to the physical - not necessarily touching, but just standing in someone's way - it ceases to be merely "speech." Then we start getting into the territory of harassment - do we not?

 

More than likely

---------- Added 0 hours, 0 minutes and 50 seconds later... ----------

And isn't logical to imagine that the Secret Service will do anything in their power to prevent this?

 

Yes, because SS agents have no way of knowing if the guy is moving just to shout, or something worse. Nor should they take that chance either way.

I'm only passingly familiar with the Howards case, so I don't know if his actions were merely him shouting at Cheney (which isn't a crime, but reasonable for the SS to react defensively at that time) or if he physically moved towards or in front of Cheney to say what he said. If memory serves however, he just shouted at Cheney in a non-personally-threatening manner and then was detained well after the fact, when Cheney was no longer in any possible danger. That makes it retaliatory, and IMO the guy has a case. All that was required in response from the SS was a warning.

 

That's why the Mall tapes will be important. They will show how Howards approached Cheney and for how long he was in front of him. If it was as non-threatening as Howards claimed, then he has evey right to sue for false arrest and violation of free speech.

 

So, telling a government official that you find his policies reprehensible is "threatening" him, now? Snook, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if Howard was actually threatening the vice president, he would have been detained on the spot -- not 10 minutes later while shopping with his 8 year old kid.

 

He wasn't arrested 10 mins later but moments later after the secret service had gotten cheney out of the crowd that he had been talking to when howard pushed his way into it to assualt &/or harrass the VP.
It is also alleged that howard had either pushed or poked cheney in the arm to get his attention. Depending on which story you look at he was either charged with harrassment or assault, either of which charge was later dropped.

PS, i love how irate you get when it is a republican that may have sicced the secret service on someone but when it is a liberal teacher that does it, "oh it's just a none story".
Hypocrasy drew, you might want to look it up.

 

Martaug, the charges -- all the charges -- were dropped, and Howard had enough time to leave the mall and return with his son. The fact that all the charges were dropped does lend credence to Howard's story, as does the fact that his son wasn't with him when he initially talked to Cheney. As to my so-called hypocrisy, I think I'll just see what I, myself, had to say about the matter.

You're right...I'm clearly blinded by partisanship.

 

If that is the case then it will be on the surveillance camera's tape. Howards feels pretty confident; enough show up in court and let a judge or a jury decide. That is more than Cheney is willing to do. And that tells me a lot about the merits of the case.

 

Chandos, that's it in a nutshell.

Martaug, what gives you the idea that Howard was detained immediately? Not a single linked source rebukes Howard's claim that he was detained about 10 minutes later, after leaving the mall and returning (and the Secret Service isn't commenting), so I'm curious about where you're getting your information.

 

Chandos most security tapes are kept for a month at most, getting one from 2006 is probably a pipedream.

Drew, if you think you can leave a mall & return in 10 minutes you are dreaming. Howard walked away from the incident but did not leave the mall. Also how stupid do you have to be to start a confrontation with a man with secret service protection when you are responsible for your childs well-being?

*edit*
He was walking his 1st son to piano lessons & left that son there with his wife & came back with his 2nd son were he was arrested. the time frame mentioned was 5 minutes.

 

You are correct, Martaug: One month would be at the outside, since they usually tape over them. It could be that Howard's lawyer, or the SS did not think to get it from the security surviellance room. That would have been the first piece of evidence I would have requested if I was building a case on either side.

About as stupid as Joe the Plumber, who confronted Obama with his kid at his side.

 

Wait, someone said joe the plumber was smart?!?
How did i miss that?

 

Martaug, believe it or not, I've been to many malls in my lifetime. I know for a fact that it is possible to walk out of a mall and walk back in in well under 10 minutes. How long does it take you to leave a building and walk back in? I didn't say that the guy went home, dude. I said he left the mall and came back.

 

That was in Sweden yes. In Finland the last politician I remember to have been murdered outside the civil war is General Governor Bobrikov and he was Russian, and was killed well over a century ago. I think lesser security makes politicians more approachable to people which is a good thing. Of course I understand that this is not possible for the most prominent politicians like the US president.