Time for a new age?

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ROTFLMAO Chandos, I would add to your rep for the above but it seems I have done that recently.

 

Thanks, Nakia.

 

Joa,
and apologies in advance for wildly generalising

I think I understood one facet of America a little better after I watched an old James Cagney movie, namely the (quite melodramatic) City for Conquest (1940). I think many American movies depict a self image of Americans, which makes it interesting to watch in this context. This one is about an immigrant's dreams.

Then there is what appears to be an utter conviction around ('transcending' R's and D's), that the American Way Of Life™ (and doing business and so forth) is the best there is, and essentially the only one and that everybody else ought to better emulate it (at times with the addition, or else). That is to say, Americans appear to like to believe their own propaganda. From an outsider's perspective I can say to that that there is palpable evidence that for instance the Germans, Swedes, Swiss, French and Dutch prosper, too.

That said, Americans are still a wicked riddle to me, but alas, eventually I'll crack their code.

 

Actually, I'd like to see the US stop all that until we're back on our feet.

Ethiopia needs 200 tons of food?
Sorry, unemployment and homeless rates are on the rise and our domestic food banks and shelters are in desperate need of supplies...we'll get back to feeding your starving masses as soon as we feed our own.

Indonesia got hit by another 9.5 earthquake which triggered a massive Tsunami and needs aid?
Sorry, we need to stock up for our hurricane, tornado, and fire seasons...we get some really nasty natural disasters too you know.

And that story from 2008 where we sent aid to Myanmar...but it was rejected. Politics aside, we should have said, "K, bye...don't ask us for help *ever* again...we've got people in our own country that need this stuff."

I guess my point is, the US needs to focus on its own needs and to tell everyone with their hands held out to scram.

No you won't...but if you pay for my airfare along with my room and board, I'd be more than willing to fly over to Cologne and help you out.

 

Ah but Kitrax the US barely gives any aid as it is. It may be a major aidgiver if you count total numbers but when it comes to % of GNP you are small fish. That is another thing that ties in to this, Americans are completely and utterly convinced that you are the good guys, always and the best guys. Most people do not view the American struggle against terrorists and islamic fundamentalism as a struggle between good and evil but a struggle between bad and worse. It seems like, and Kitrax post confirms this, that Americans view themselves as knights in shining armor who selflessy help others to great cost to themselves. Most of the rest of the world do not really share that opinion.

All this is irrelevent for the topic though, the point of it was to state that I do not think things will change all that much. Many people believe Obama will change everything, he will not. Bush might have been extreme but I think Obama will be normal. The US acting normally is what made some people pissed off enough to fly planes into the WTC and dub you the "Great Satan". I do not think Obama will change much of that. I hope he does but I do not think so.

Ah, Ragusa I think the idea of "manifest destiny" is still very much alive and deeply rooted in the American soul.

 

@ Rags and joa,

I think you are both absolutely correct when you say most Americans believe their way of life is the best, and that Americans are utterly convinced that they are the good guys. I am fairly moderate in my views, and I think that way. I'd never want to move to Britain, Australia, or any other English speaking nation. And moving to a country where I'd have to learn a new language is completely out of the question.

What I am surprised by is that you both find these traits to be peculiar to the US. As to what way of life is "the best" and who the "good guys" are is largely a matter of opinion, I would think these types of mindsets would be nearly universal. Do not Germans think the German way of life is the best and they are the good guys? Don't Swedes think the Swedish way of life is the best and they are the good guys as well?

Moreover - can't we all be correct in thinking that way? Could not the American way of life be best for Americans, the German way of life best for Germans, and the Swedish way of life best for Swedes?

 

There was a sarcastic quip about Imperial Germany, when Germany still held colonies, "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt gensesen", roughly translated as 'German virtues or the German way shall cure the world's ills'. At that time Germany was in many ways (arts, science, education, technology) exemplary. If you want an entertaining depiction of how well that came across, watch the movie King Solomon's Mines (1985). The French had their mission civilisatrice. The Brits had their's. Our humbling came in two world wars. The French and Brits were humbled in decolonisation. I don't think that there is a fit-all solution for a nation's problems, let alone the world's problems. The Euros, over their humbling, have lost zeal in propagating their ways as exemplary. Who knows, when the EU continues to prosper, maybe we forget past crises of confidence and regain it under a new label. If that would be to the better, I don't know.

America hasn't been humbled yet. That is just a factual statement, nothing more. I certainly don't wish for America to be humbled as there usually is a typically high price tag attached to that. Bush was a mere temporary embarrassment; the costs his policies incurred are real, but from what I see now it is far from constituting a humbling.

That is probably true. Personally I think that for instance the German way of having breakfast is the best there is, only starting with the finding that all these frankly incompetent foreigners don't know how to make proper bread. The question is whether the American way in its form is sustainable. So far, the Swedish and German ways consume less resources. That said, I don't think the American way is clearly defined. It morphs and will continue to. In twenty years it will with great probability look different.

 

Of course most countries are convinced that they are the best at least in some aspects. The main difference is that most countries either lack the power and influence to preach or they might have gained the insight that to each his own. It is kinda like religions, you dont mind the loonies down the road as long as they leave you alone but they do get on your nerves if they knock on your door every week trying to save you.

 

I wish you take the time to explain that, because "manifest destiny" is a complex doctrine. To understand it more fully, we have to go back and explore the doctrines of the bastard "Conqueror" and later, the English Civil War of the mid-17th Century, to understand why the Englishmen, who crafted America, were concerned with territory, and why it was important if the new nation was to survive.

The only other practical model the Revolutionaries had was Europe, and during the 17th and 18th Centuries it was a hive of tyrants, war and murder - there was not a small parcel of ground in Europe that wasn't steeped with the blood of its natives. It was felt that as long as the colonists pushed westward, they would not, like their European brothers, fight amongest themselves over a tiny plot of land. Whether or not it was a successful idea is the subject of debate.

The idoits who do such things are nothing but would-be tyrants themselves. They come from petty kingdoms, full of religious and racist dogma (talk about propaganda). The "Great Satan" is just an excuse for the trifiling autocrats who dwell in such places to draw attention from their own ruthless regimes, and project their people's frustrations onto an easy target.

These are kingdoms where religous autocrats try to marry-off 10 year old virgin girls in the name of their God, but are satisfying their own perverse and misogynistic nightmares. People in such places are subject to the worst human rights abuses. You complain about our tortures, which are nothing, compared to the brutaility of the Taliban, who turned on ordinary soccer field into a pit of public torture and execution. And you guys have to wonder why we support Israel? Go figure.

 

Joacqin, you may be right because I agree with Kitrax. We have a lot homeless people, we have a lot of people standing in bread lines, we have a lot of people who need medical care and medicines who can't afford it. We do have our own disasters, We are a big country with big problems. Charity should begin at home.

I still don't know what you want us to change. If you are judging us by what Bush did I don't think that is fair. We don't normally go around indiscriminately invading other countries. The prior 'police actions' were undertaken as part of UN forces not something we initiated on our own.

You still haven't said what it is you want us to change. Do you want me to stop loving my country and thinking it is great and basically a wonderful place to live? Forget it. I love the USA even when I don't agree with the what my government is doing. I love our diverse cultures even when I don't like certain aspects.

We are descendants of Europeans, Asians, Africans and Native Americans. You don't like us, fine. We won't cry about it because we are arrogant, We don't think we are perfect but we do think we are great. You don't understand us? Why should you? You come from and live in a different place. We are young, you are old. Yes granny can say that. The young always think they know better than the old people. We have never been defeated by a foreign power except the Canadians and that was before we were officially an independent nation. We don't like having buildings blown up by crazies and we won't put up with it.

I have no idea what you mean by 'normal'. I hope Obama does make or at least begin the changes he has promised: clean up the environment, better medical care, more jobs for us. All things that are in the interest of the people of the USA.

Again I ask you: What is it you want us to change? Be specific.

What Kitrax said is only family first, neighbors secon and you folks way over there can get in line.

We have our family feuds but attack us, verbally or physically and we will join together to kick back.

four years ago on this Board I was told I should move to another country because I did not like Bush, now I'm being told I should change but not what I should change. Tell me so I can decide if I want to change or not.

edit: Chandos, once more I compliment you on a great post. I wish I could write something like that. It is there in the back of my mind but I just can't articulate it. Thank you.

 

Yeah! 'Sup now?!

/me points finger at jaoquin over Nakia's shoulder.

 

The strong reaction this thread is getting from people is part of what I am talking about. I do not think you should change anything, it is not up for me to say but I do not think you can expect to be universally loved and respected just because you changed leadership. The US had plenty of skeletons in their closet long before Bush. As for who are calling you great satan, I did say bad (the US) and worse ("islamofascists").

 

And you think this is applicable of how the US deals with Europe? You really think that most Americans (or most American politicians at least) are attempting to change the politics or culture of Sweden to make the Swedes more like us? If you are brown and have oil, it's a whole 'nother story, but I firmly believe the average American does think to each his own when it comes to most European countries. Heck, the average American cannot even point to Sweden on a map, nevermind giving a rat's ass as to whether the Swedish way of life is similar or dissimilar to the American way of life. (And I don't say that to be insulting - I'm just saying that the average Americacn doesn't think about Europe. The average American does think about Iraq and Afghanistan, for obvious reasons.)

EDIT: re: dmc's comment below - I initially spelled "Sweden" and "Swedish" incorrectly - espeically embarassing as I correctly spelled Swede, but threw an extra "e" in there for some reason with Sweden.

 

Their very economic strength makes America somewhat of an imperialist nation, if not politically then economically. American culture is devoured by many, many other cultures, and if those cultures put up barriers to American cultural products they are seen as "repressive" (and sometimes they are!)

But there's nothing about America that I would want to see changed that I wouldn't want to see changed everywhere.

As for foreign aid, I've never bought into that GNP argument -- it's always stank of sour grapes from countries that have had less economic success than the US (like my own, for instance). The bottom line is that when there's a famine in some country (I'll call it Exxia), the Exxians don't care that Canada sent over $50,000,000 in food, which amounts to 1% of our GNP, when what they need is 500,000,000 and the Americans sent it even though it is only .001 of their GNP. The fact is that the Americans sent more and helped more people, and the Exxians, while greatful to the Canadians for doing what they could, are likely to be more greatful to the people whose bottom line help was greater.

Still on foreign aid, I'm with Nakia -- if you need help, we'll give it to you IF we can spare it, but if you then turn around and start badmouthing us, then don't expect a great deal of help in the future, you ungrateful little < insert vicious expletive here).

 

dmc, I would have made the same mistake and I' don't consider myself the average American.

Aldeth, I have the same problem with your posts as with Chandos. I guess I'm in a rut.

I could care less what kind of government another country has as long as it doesn't affect us. As Aldeth said, oil for instance.

I would probably be concerned if there was a radical change in the governments of Canada or Mexico. They are neighbors and staying on peaceful terms with them is important.

As far as being loved by other countries, I could care less. Respect, yes. Respect us. Respect IMO was what Afghanistan was all about. Or fear if you prefer.
IMO Iraq was a big mistake because it took the focus off Afghanistan.

edit: Thank you, LKD

 

It should be theoretically possible to cover our own consumption, stock up for emergencies and still help these countries in need. We just need a government that understands this and can make it work. We also need charitable organizations to be wiser in the use of donated resources.

Here's an interesting idea: Since the USA subsidizes corn production to keep production up and prices down, have these charities that strive to feed starving people in the world buy up the cheap corn to send. This would see a slight increase in the market price of the corn, and a slight savings to the government as they would save a few pennies on the bushel in subsidies...

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Some words just trip some people up for no explainable reason. Let he who is without sin cast the first stoan...

 

I, for one, don't think this way at all. I think the American way of life is reckless and unsustainable. Not only do I not think that our way of life is best, but I feel that our way of life is far from it.

 

Gnarff - We now use corn as ethanol to fuel cars, which environmentalists don't like very much:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

 

There have been some good points made here. One, the US system today isn't really 'sustainable', but the US currently has so many resources we don't really care that much. It's like if you won the lottery and go on a huge spending spree. It isn't sustainable, but as long as there is plenty, it keeps up. At the same time, the US system is constantly changing, and we're starting to recognize that we aren't sustainable and our resources aren't infinite. In twenty years, we'll see what we're like.

The other good point is that the US is big and powerful, in terms of military, cash, resources, economy, politics, everything. Anything that's big like that will automatically influence others significantly, even if they aren't really trying to. I won't get into a huge debate about whether or not we're right, but no matter what we do, little guy's will be swept along. The only way to prevent us from radically altering other cultures is to conform ourselves to what they are already, and that's ridiculous.