US General Election: McCain vs. Obama

You're point would make more sense if this was a world with a completely free market and without government involvement in business and where businesses solely stand and act on their own, and where then the government would deprive them of their hard earned money. You will be hard pressed to find such purity in reality.

In that sense you lose aim when you speak of taxation likely killing the smaller companies. That only starts with the remarkable assertion that taxes are likely to kill smaller companies. Is that so? Not to mention the equally remarkable assertion that smaller companies cannot afford lobbyists - they can and they do - by forming industry interest groups, where membership for smaller companies is often for free.

The salient point, however, lies elsewhere, and it is about justification for taxation: What about the state 'nurturing' these companies, large or small, to begin with? What about adequate compensation for the undeniable benefits the company draws from the national infrastructure - roads, railways, education system that produces the employees, a legal system that allows them to enforce their rights in disputes and such, or subsidies even. Companies do massively benefit from such public investments, and much more so than the average citizen.

A company that takes all that at the taxpayer's expense and then complains about having to pay taxes (and/or evades taxation, say, through off shoring the profits) is quite simply freeloading.

PS: Which then would suggest a reasonable and decidedly not ridiculous explanation for the point that paying taxes is nearly patriotic, considering how relatively easy it is for a corporation to pay no taxes at all.

 

You know, when I plan my family budget, I figure in the cost of my taxes, and consider my taxes to be part of the expense of living in a world class country. I find it disgaceful that the "smart asses" in business and corporate America can't budget their companies to pay taxes like the rest of us. And I'm quite tired of hearing about the "picked on" rich and powerful. Let me get out the world's smallest violin and play it for all those fat cats who are enjoying my hard earned money through all the government welfare that supports their greed and incompetence.

What's more disgraceful is all those who gripe about welfare for the poor, but won't even support the notion that corporations should pay their fair share of taxes and support plenty of welfare for those CEOs who can't manage a business budget to relflect an expense that should be taken for granted. Could you imagine what would happen if all those companies had to get off the govenment welfare system? Companies like Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Blackwater, Halli, etc? Imagine, if our taxes would go down and we would have a smaller govenment. Imagine, we would have more money to spend with our neighbors who run smaller, competent businesses, and that serve our communities. Instead we have a bloated govenment full of corporate corruption. How many more senators have to be found guilty of corporate corruption?

 

Wouldn't this whole discussion be better off somewhere else, maybe even in the Taxation Policy thread?

 

Here is the latest (as far as I know) line of attack of the McCain Campaign, taken up by Gov. Palin: Obama is palling around with terrorists, Part 2


Gov. Sarah Palin on Wednesday said Sen. Barack Obama has ties to a Columbia University professor who she said is "a former spokesperson for the Palestinian Liberation Organization."
Gov. Sarah Palin says it's "not negative campaigning to call someone out on their record."

The Obama campaign said on its Web site that "ugly insinuations about Barack Obama's relationship with a former neighbor and university colleague ... are completely false." The professor has denied he was a spokesman for the Palestine Liberation Organization, which the U.S. and Israel consider a terrorist organization.

Palin said her assertion "is not negative campaigning to call someone out on their record."

"It seems that there is yet another radical professor from the neighborhood who spent a lot of time with Barack Obama going back several years," Palin said at an event in Bowling Green, Ohio.

"This is important because his associate, Rashid Khalidi ... in addition to being a political ally of Barack Obama, he's a former spokesperson for the Palestinian Liberation Organization." Video Watch Palin say the LA Times is 'kowtowing' to Obama »

Sen. John McCain's campaign repeatedly has sought to tie Obama to former 1960s radical William Ayers, who co-founded the Weather Underground. Ayers is a professor at the University of Illinois.

Khalidi is a leading scholar of Middle Eastern studies at Columbia, and he was a contemporary of Obama's while on the faculty of the University of Chicago. Read: Palin blasts Obama for ties to Palestinian professor

Khalidi has been a harsh critic of U.S. foreign policy toward Israel and has accused the country of "occupying" Palestinian territories. But he has denied acting as a PLO spokesman during a seven-year period in the 1970s and 1980s.

Khalidi said Wednesday, "I am not speaking to the media at this time, and certainly not until this idiot wind passes."

The Obama campaign called Palin's remarks "another recycled, manufactured controversy from the McCain campaign to distract voters' attention from John McCain's lockstep support for George Bush's economic policies."

In April, the Los Angeles Times published an article about a going-away dinner for Khalidi that Obama attended in Chicago, Illinois, in 2003. Khalidi was leaving to become a professor at Columbia.

The paper reported that a young Palestinian-American woman recited a poem at the farewell party that accused the Israeli government of terrorism for its treatment of Palestinians and was highly critical of U.S. support of Israel.

The McCain campaign accused the Los Angeles paper of "intentionally suppressing" a videotape it obtained from that dinner and demanded that it release the footage. Read: McCain pushes Obama connection to Khalidi

The Times said it won't release the footage because a reporter promised a source that the video would not be made public.

Asked why the McCain campaign was bringing the matter up six months after the article appeared, an aide replied, "Because we are one week away from potentially electing Barack Obama."

At an event Wednesday in Raleigh, North Carolina, Obama said McCain has spent the last few days calling him "every name in the book."

"I don't know what's next. By the end of the week, he'll be accusing me of being a secret communist because I shared my toys in kindergarten. I shared my peanut butter and jelly sandwich," Obama said. Video Watch Obama scoff at 'socialist' label »

Earlier Wednesday, Palin delivered her second policy address of the campaign season.

Palin said she and McCain are determined to put the country on "a path toward energy independence" and charged that an Obama administration would hinder that process.

Palin pointed to her experience as governor as evidence she can help the U.S. achieve energy security.

"Whatever the good ol' boys are running these days, I know it's not the state of Alaska," she said in Toledo, Ohio.

 

Thank God that the McCain campaign has finally started to get serious about disclosing who Obama is. It isn't like the media was going to do it for him, they only seem to be able to investigate plumbers.

I saw the video of Obama when he talks about sharing at kindergarden. Boy, did that joke fall flat. He just doesn't do sarcasm well.

 

Ok I'll bite. Who do you think Obama is?

 

Montressor, any moneys spent on expanding, hiring new employees, buying additional advertising, or just generally improving their business will lower both a corporation's profit and its taxes. Moreover, a small business owner who chooses to incorporate pays himself a salary, which is also deducted from the corporation's taxes. If an owner wants his corporation to pay lower taxes but doesn't want to expand, he can simply give himself a raise or pay himself a dividend*. In addition to being able to deduct an employee's pay and benefits from its profit, a corporation also gets a $3,000 credit per employee. This is all beside the point, of course, since the proverbial Mom&Pop usually isn't incorporated, either, and will pay less taxes under Obama's plan.

* Dividends are usually taxed as income, so there's no real difference, either way.

 

Oh I know! I know! Either this guy or this guy, or any of those guys.

Seriously - in their campaign the GOP made Obama's character the issue and week after week started attacks designed to turn Obama into "the other". Obama's judgment was irrevocably flawed. Inexperienced! Elitist! 'Pals around' with terrorists! He is anti-American! He might be a secret Muslim extremist! Or the Antichrist! But then a strange thing happened in the past couple of weeks: According to the polls, these charges didn't stick with undecided voters.

So with the election less than a week away Obama is a socialist that wants to take your money and give it to lazy, poor people. Pathetic.

 

Ahh, the 30 minute obama infomercial. What a pile o' crap
Here is the AP fact check about it
WASHINGTON -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama was less than upfront in his half-hour commercial Wednesday night about the costs of his programs and the crushing budget pressures he would face in office.

Obama's assertion that "I've offered spending cuts above and beyond" the expense of his promises is accepted only by his partisans. His vow to save money by "eliminating programs that don't work" masks his failure throughout the campaign to specify what those programs are -- beyond the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

A sampling of what voters heard in the ad, and what he didn't tell them:

THE SPIN: "That's why my health care plan includes improving information technology, requires coverage for preventive care and pre-existing conditions and lowers health care costs for the typical family by $2,500 a year."

THE FACTS: His plan does not lower premiums by $2,500, or any set amount. Obama hopes that by spending $50 billion over five years on electronic medical records and by improving access to proven disease management programs, among other steps, consumers will end up saving money. He uses an optimistic analysis to suggest cost reductions in national health care spending could amount to the equivalent of $2,500 for a family of four. Many economists are skeptical those savings can be achieved, but even if they are, it's not a certainty that every dollar would be passed on to consumers in the form of lower premiums.

THE SPIN: "I also believe every American has a right to affordable health care."

THE FACTS: That belief should not be confused with a guarantee of health coverage for all. He makes no such promise. Obama hinted as much in the ad when he said about the problem of the uninsured: "I want to start doing something about it." He would mandate coverage for children but not adults. His program is aimed at making insurance more affordable by offering the choice of government-subsidized coverage similar to that in a plan for federal employees and other steps, including requiring larger employers to share costs of insuring workers.

THE SPIN: "I've offered spending cuts above and beyond their cost."

THE FACTS: Independent analysts say both Obama and Republican John McCain would deepen the deficit. The nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates Obama's policy proposals would add a net $428 billion to the deficit over four years -- and that analysis accepts the savings he claims from spending cuts. The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, whose other findings have been quoted approvingly by the Obama campaign, says: "Both John McCain and Barack Obama have proposed tax plans that would substantially increase the national debt over the next 10 years." The analysis goes on to say: "Neither candidate's plan would significantly increase economic growth unless offset by spending cuts or tax increases that the campaigns have not specified."

THE SPIN: "Here's what I'll do. Cut taxes for every working family making less than $200,000 a year.(Wasn't this $250,000 just a few weeks ago?? Also joe biden recently said it was for people making over $150,000. Notice it keeps getting lower & lower - martaug)[/I] Give businesses a tax credit for every new employee that they hire right here in the U.S. over the next two years and eliminate tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. Help homeowners who are making a good faith effort to pay their mortgages, by freezing foreclosures for 90 days. And just like after 9-11, we'll provide low-cost loans to help small businesses pay their workers and keep their doors open. "

THE FACTS: His proposals -- the tax cuts, the low-cost loans, the $15 billion a year he promises for alternative energy, and more -- cost money, and the country could be facing a record $1 trillion deficit next year. Indeed, Obama recently acknowledged -- although not in his commercial -- that: "The next president will have to scale back his agenda and some of his proposals."

So he spent 30 minutes gladhanding us & telling half-truths. And he is different than every other politician how??

 

Let me help you out some martaug:

On the price of health care - I have no way of checking how much, if anything, it will save the average person. Heck, if you don't have health insurance now, you are paying nothing for health care, so if you are currently spending nothing, you can't possible save anything. I thought his plan was to make health care more affordable, and this is the first time that I've seen a number attached to it.

On health care - Obama has never promised universal health care for all. He has said from the beginning that he would only require it for children. He wants to increase access the health care, and make it more affordable to more people, but I have never said he would give everyone healthcare - just the kids.

On spending - this one is correct. No matter who gets elected president, we're going further into debt.

On tax cuts - According to his website - and this has been his policy since day one: Anyone making $250,000 or less annually will not see a tax increase, which is true. But if you make between $150,000 and $250,000 annually, you won't see a tax decrease either. For people in that range, your taxes stay the same. When I saw the tax cuts for people below $200,000 I thought that Obama was actually increasing the range of tax cuts. Biden's statement of people making under $150,000 was actually what I thought was the correct statement. In the simplest terms:

Under $150K - taxes go down
$150K-$250K - taxes stay the same
Over $250K - taxes go up

But to answer your question, no a few weeks ago he did not say your taxes will go down if you make under $250K. He said people making less than $250K will not see any increase in their taxes.

 

Wow, that is a tough one, but I'll give it a shot.

1. Barack Obama may or may not even be elgibile to be President. The fact that there are concerns as to his birthplace and birthparents is a concern. Personally, I think this is crap. However, the fact that there are multiple lawsuits questioning this concerns me. I don't understand why he doesn't just go public with his proof and put this to rest.

2. Barack Obama spent 20 years going to a church with was run by a racist, anti-american preacher. There is video of Barack saying that all black churches should be like this one. Now, that he is running for President, he has the nerve to tell us that he never noticed anything out of the ordinary and has I believe found a different church, pastor, and spirtual leader.

3. Barack Obama started his political carear in the living room of Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers is an unrepetent domestic terrorist who somehow escaped prosecution. Barack claims that he was 8 years old when Ayers was bombing buildings and he is just some guy in his neighborhood. Of course, he wasn't 8 years old when he was in Ayer's living room, and he somehow knew him well enough as Barack wrote a glowing book review for one of Ayer's books.

4. Barack is also tied to Rashid Khalidi a former spokesman for the PLO. Apparantly the LA times has video of the two of them at a going away dinner, but for some reason has decided not to release the video. How one of the most liberal newspapers in the country can get away with this is mind boggling. I can't even imagine the outrage if the Wall Street Journal or Fox News had a potentially damning video of McCain and chose to not release it. Same as above if this is a nothing, then why don't they want to release it and put it to rest. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

5. To the best of my knowledge Barack Obama has only accomplished two things in his carear so far. First he delivered a great speech at the Democratic convention in 2004 and second he has won the Democratic nomination in 2008. He does not have a distinguished record as a state senator or a U.S. senator. Somehow after being a U.S. senator for 142 days he decided he was ready to be President. I see a lot fo hand wringing about Palin's lack of experience, but the fact that Obama has never done anything is completly ignored. This is troubling to me.

6. The ties between ACORN and Obama. In a recent interview an ACORN employee has disclosed that they were provided lists from the Obama campaign of people who have already maxed out there contributions to the campaign. This is a blatant attempt to get people to circumvent the rules.

7. Speaking of the rules, the credit card fraud being committed by the Obama campaign should result in someone being sent to prison. The Obama campaign as eliminated all of the normal controls that are placed on credit cards so they can accept any and all contributions. In a normal transaction the contributer has to submit their name, address, and the code on the back of the card. If you are making a contribution to the Obama campaign you do not have to disclose any of these, you only have to put the credit card number and expiration date of the card in. This has led to donations from Mickey Mouse and other fictional characters. The campaign is also getting donations from gift cards which is further hiding the identity of the potential donors.

8. Donations in general. Long ago Obama and McCain agreed to accept public financing of the campaign. Obama realized that he could probably bring in a lot more money if he ignored this and therefore changed his mind and has had a financial advantage over McCain. Not a very honorable thing to do.

This are just the things that I thought of off the top of my head. I'm sure I'll think of other disturbing things later on. When I think of Obama all I see is an empty suit, but a very expensive one. He is great with a prepared speech and a handsome looking guy. It is a shame that Romney didn't get the nomination as he is an even better looking guy and on merit Romney has a world more of experience.

To me character matters, and I don't see Obama has having any. Look at the people he associates with, not a bunch of people that I would trust. I don't believe you can trust any candidates "campain promises" as they almost never happen. They have to get them through Congress and that almost never happens without major changes. Therefore, I look at who I can trust, and Obama just isn't the guy.

 

Snook, I want my 2 minutes back. You do realize that chain e-mails are almost always wrong, right? The fact that a forty-something accountant remains incapable of distinguishing between fact and innuendo doesn't speak well for the profession.

 

Well you can't have them back.

Trying to dismiss and ignore concerns that the electorate have is a typical Obama solution. If they are all crap then, he should address them and make them go away. Why doesn't he?

Obama hasn't shown anyone who he is, it has all been empty rhetoric. Is it wrong to judge a man by the company he keeps? I don't think so.

I also just remembered that I forgot to add that it was Louis Farrakhan (sic) who labelled him the messiah. There is another guy I don't feel comfortable with.

 

Francis Fukuyama is going to vote for Obama and here's what he as to say:

What?! He's questioning the wisdom of 'Reagan forever', and thus everything that's pure holy to the free marketeers in the GOP - he attacks even the heritage of the GOP patron saint St. Ronald™ (Sainthood even protestants can believe in!)?

That's what's wrong with these elitist, liberal academics: Nothing is ever holy to them. They change their mind, are timid, generally think things kaput and lack certainty and conviction. And they're sissies. They lack moral clarity and testicular fortitude. Truly bold, enlightened leadership does insist on more of the same - in the knowledge that they are right, have always been right - and they will unblinkingly stay course and sail towards the inevitable vindication, to destiny!

​

 

I don't think much of Fukayama, and this is far too little far too late, but this is exactly correct. This was precisely my argument FOR douchebag John Kerry in 2004. I would say it's more true today.

 

Wow, is it possible that the khalidi thing is starting to wake up the Jewish vote? I know many will dismiss this as it is a critique of the media and many think the media is impartial

 

Snook, I'm actually somewhat surprised that you (properly) dismiss the 9/11 conspiracy theories, but seemingly are willing to buy into the Media Plot To Put A Terrorist In The White House.

 

Hehe, it shows that visicous unsubstantiated attacks are the only things the right have left.

Obama is a real life Manchurian candidate! He is a terrorist plant, just look at the people he has run across in his life! He might actually be a politician who views his own country through realistic goggles without nationalistic worship and a belief in the infallibility of the glorious USA. Or even worse, he might even have toyed with the idea that it actually takes two to tango in such a violent conflict as the one Israel is in.

As for the media, I have been as most of you know strongly of the opinion that the US is everything but unbiased. It has always been fiercely nationalistic and the last eight years more or less completely controlled by the GOP. Now when it is impossible to hide the bungling and outright lunacy of the Republicans it is striving back to somekind of normalcy where loyalty again is more to the bottom line than the will of emperor George.