Political Philosophy

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I am all for punishing the Republicans for any illegal efforts to disenfranchise anyone. If such punishment hasn't occurred, that's a disgrace. My hatred for unethical or illegal behaviour crosses all political lines.

That said, I still don't feel that requiring some form of government issued photo ID is unfair. I don't care about the statistics, it's a matter of principle. Every citizen should have valid ID to prove that they are truly citizens of the country in which they reside. If they want to take part in the polity, they should be prepared to prove they are legally entitled to that right.

But these incidents of Reps changing the rules at the last minute, invalidating formerly legitimate ID? Disgraceful. As was mentioned in another thread, Obama did it too at one point, and I'm sure that Democrats have done it in the past, but I would assume that it is more difficult to disenfranshise middle and upper class voters who would be more likely to vote for the Republicans.

 

Are you sure that you, in saying this, correctly reflect American realities as far as ID ownership is concerned?

Oh definitely. It is quite transparent actually.

 

Obama did not. What he did do, in his first campaign for state senate, was challenge the signatures his democratic opponents had used to get on the ballot. It turned out that a great many of them weren't actually registered, which dropped their total signatures to insufficient levels to remain on the ballot, guaranteeing Obama's place as the democratic nominee.

Obama didn't stop anyone from voting. Aside from the fact that this was just a primary (and voting in a primary is a privilege, not a right), the only signatures that he kicked off those lists came from people who couldn't vote, anyway and who, in many cases, didn't even exist. No individual registrations were challenged by the Obama campaign.

 

Sorry drew, somehow i forgot to put a line in. It's free in 8 states for seniors over a various age between 59-65

So, exactly how much does an ID cost in the 50 States? Not a Driver's License, just a basic ID card


Alabama - $23
Alaska - Under 60 is $15, over 60 is free
Arizona - $12. Over 65 is free
Arkansas - $10
California - $23. Free for those over 62. $7 for low income folks
Colorado - $10.50. Free for those over 60
Connecticut - $15
Delaware -$5
Florida - $3 whole friggin’ dollars!!!!!!
Georgia -$20 for 5 years, $35 for $10 years
Hawaii - $15 for under 65, $10 for over 65
Idaho - $7.50. Renewals can even be done by mail
Illinois - $20, free for seniors over 65with no renewal necessary
Indiana - $13 under 65, $10 for over 65, last for 6 years
Iowa - $5
Kansas - $18 under 65, $14 over 65
Kentucky - $12
Louisiana - Average $21, free for over 60
Maine - $5
Maryland - $15, free for those over 65
Massachusetts - $15
Michigan - $10, free for seniors.
Minnesota - $15.50, $10.75 for those 65 and up
Mississippi - $13
Missouri - $11
Montana - $8
Nebraska - $23.75 (lots of different fees for those under 21)
Nevada - $11.25. For 65 and up, new is $6.25, renewal is $2.25
New Hampshire - haven’t been able to find the cost, even at the New Hampshire DMV or New Hampshire’s main site
New Jersey - $24
New Mexico - $5 for 5 years, $8 for 10 years
New York - Depending on length, $9 to $14. 62 and up, $6.50
North Carolina - $10
North Dakota - $8
Ohio - $8.50
Oklahoma - $10
Oregon - $29 for 8 years
Pennsylvania - $10
Rhode Island - $15, free for 59 and up
South Carolina - $5
South Dakota - $8
Tennessee - $12.50. For those 65 and up, they never expire
Texas - $15. 60 and up, $5 and never has to be renewed
Utah - $18. Never expires for those 65 and up
Vermont - $15, $10 if you get Social Security Income
Virginia - $10
Washington - $20
West Virginia - can’t find an actual figure
Wisconsin - $28 for eight years
Wyoming - $10, never expires
Washington, D.C. - $20

Also, everyone should have state ID, as it is required for so much.
Want to ride the train(amtrak) gotta have ID
:http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conte...opy_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1080080554204&ssid=342
Want to ride on a greyhound bus? Gotta have ID
Want to fly? Gotta have an ID

There is absolutely no reason for anyone not to have a state issued ID, not to mention that if you get stopped by the cops & don't have valid ID, you are going to jail until your id is verified.

Out-of-state students have an even greater reason to get a drivers license(at least in nc).
You can't buy alcohol with non-nc ID's just DL's(military id's, NC state ID & passports are the only other form of acceptable ID)

Drew, look at the example of the lady that had been registered over 20 times with different addresses & different SS#'s. Even if you have a relatively small group going to each Early Voter poll center & doing this it can quickly grow into a HUGE problem

 

And here I thought they only did that in the old Soviet Union. Thomas Jefferson would be more than disappointed in how we turned out.

 

Argumentum ad narratiuncula fabulosa.

As in:

If we had a terrorist, who is to detonate a bomb in a major city within the next hour .... even if you have a relatively small bomb going off, this can quickly grow into a HUGE problem.

Leap:

Which is of course reality, and not an anecdote or hypothesis, we cannot possibly let this happen and thus immediate action is called for.

* * *​

Which brings me to an interesting article: In 5-Year Effort, Scant Evidence of Voter Fraud.

One other interesting thing about this is justice department policy on the matter. In the manual from 1995 it said:

Hear, hear. This passage was changed. And as for why, the scant evidence of voter fraud in the previous years probably didn't warrant urgent action. Of course, there were instances when justice department practice didn't appear to fully conform with the manual. Enter Mr. Schlozmann who, during the last election, decided to file charges against several ACORN registration organizers just days before a close election in 2006.

These charges didn't lead to sentences yet. The four defendants were accused of forging the registration forms for a grand total of six voters. They were fully cooperating with the investigation. Three weeks after the election, Schlozman's office dropped the charges against one of the defendants, Stephanie Davis, admitting that her identity was used without her permission. In some cases, the defendants simply made people up; others forged the registrations for real people. Apparently the forms could likely never be used in voting. In cases like this, the fraud is perpetrated upon ACORN, not by them. All of which is underlining that it was clearly the severity of the crime that drove Mr. Schlozman to prosecute and his superiors to disregard the US Attorney manual in this case. (*sarcasm alert*) Here's the somewhat amnesiac Mr. Schlozman testifying before congress on this:

​

Caught violating Justice department rules, they simply rewrote them. Handy to be able to do that. The questioning the ever amnesiac Alberto Gonzales on the changes made to the manual in the hearings about the attorney scandal:

​

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

 

I agree, but this doesn't change the fact that a great many people for some reason choose to go without.

I've only ever been stopped by the police while driving (and, even then, only when I had a bad tail light or was speeding). This doesn't really come up for most law-abiding people, especially law abiding people who don't drive.

 

Perhaps not, according to the activisrs, who claim that getting government issue ID is too onerous for the rural poor. I simply have a hard time buyng that position, is all I'm saying. In any event, as a matter of principle, I stand behind my logic. No proof of citizenship -- no voting.

 

LKD,
then you might be interested in this:

Citizens without proof.
Report to the U. S. Election Assistance Commission On Best Practices to Improve Voter Identification Requirements (to jump to conclusions, go to p.34)

From the latter report, footnote 33:

Doh.

martaug,
I have a solution to soothe your fear of rotten individuals voting multiple times: What's good for the goose is good for the gander - purple fingers!

 

I was in Toronto a few years back for a Concert. One of the guys that went to the show with us was thrown out before the show even started. We found him near our vehicle after the show--surrounded by security personel who told us that he had been observed vandalizing cars. WE were still there when the cops arrived, and they asked us for ID even though we didn't do anything, but we were in one of the cars that was damaged.

 

Gnarff, I never said a person would never be asked to show an ID by a police officer. Merely that it is rare. In this case, I think we can both agree that, had you forgotten your ID that day, no one would have taken you downtown. At least where I live, the police are in the business of catching criminals, not for punishing victims who haven't broken any laws.

 

Drew - That's very different than where I live. Here, they are all about nailing the average citizen as a source of revenue for that city/county. Occasionally they catch some criminals, mostly by accident, it appears. If you are the victim of a crime, then you are more of an annoyance for them. They would much rather hand you a ticket, to make an income for the city. Consider yourself lucky.

 

Don't get me wrong, Chandos. I've lived a lot of places, and the police here are as ticket happy - to be honest, a little more, really - as they are everywhere else, but I've never gotten a ticket for a law I didn't break. Have you?

 

Ragusa, your distinction between voter fraud and voter registration fraud would be valid if the courts hadn't just decided the State of Ohio doesn't need to verify their registrations, and if several states didn't have 'same-day voting' where you register and vote early on the same day.

As for no evidence of voting fraud, I find that hard to believe considering some of the things I heard (on news reports) going on in Florida in 2004 (on both the Rep and Dem side). Unless you qualify voter fraud only as successfully casting illegitimate votes that get counted in the final count (in which case we'd never know, unless it was too late at least). There's an article on the news today about a mentally challanged man who was taken to the polls by the staff at his living facility. He had an assistant for voting (common place) who decided he didn't like the way the man was voting and changed his vote to Obama. Does that count as voter fraud? How about the thousands of people found on voting records every year who were dead at the time of the election? Do those count?

 

NOG: Voter fraud is when voters attempt to vote fraudulently. Attempting to register people who don't exist isn't voter fraud. Neither is registering dead people or 2 year olds. The fraud was perpetrated on ACORN, not by them, and even if those phony registrations stuck (which they didn't) none of those made up people, deceased people, or 2 year olds would have shown up to vote.

Aside from the fact that this guy was caught (which would serve as an indicator that the system is working), would asking for ID have stopped this? When trying to argue that it is imperative to require photo identification at the polling station in order to prevent voter fraud, it would help if you would bring up examples in which asking for ID at the polling station would have actually, you know, prevented voter fraud. As I mentioned, I have no real problem with requiring a photo ID at the polling station, but with the manner in which the GOP has been trying to do it. This isn't the huge, pervasive problem that the GOP is trying to make it out to be.

I'm gonna pull a NOG on this one. Prove it... and when you vet those statistics, make sure that those thousands of voters didn't vote before they died; say, by absentee ballot (as my wife and I did - if we die tomorrow we'd be dead on election day, but our votes will still be counted) or voting early.

 

True enough, but You still need ID for the completeness of an investigation. I was able to get away with a 10 year old Meal card from my University days because I only take my Passport when I KNOW I will have to provide ID. The rest of the time, it's safely in a drawer at homw where I know exactly where it is.

 

Here you go drew
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/206969_dead07.html

And here
http://www.wreg.com/Global/story.asp?S=1278732

And here
http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/17671375/detail.html

Thats just a quick top of the list from a fast search.

 

LMAO.

Resident: I wouldn't be caught dead voting for that scumbag!

Candidate: Don't be so sure of that...

 

Run the number on those finds, Martaug. This is in keeping with what we already knew about voter fraud rates, and a .0003% variance* isn't significant enough to throw off an election. That said, demanding ID at the polls wouldn't have averted most of these instances, since they were cast with absentee ballots.

* The largest variance I found when dividing the number of potentially fraudulent ballots cast into the total number of votes cast from the regions in question.

 

umm, drew you must have missed that line in the 3rd one were it said

Now please realise that this was just the first 3 hits off of the first page of over 150,000,000 hits for dead people voting, so there obviously is a bigger problem than some are trying to suggest.


http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/12/24/104421.shtml

I know that a lot of the blame is thrown at the republicans for always bringing up the "false" charges yet there does seem to be a verifiable history of it going on.