Political Philosophy

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martaug,
lying necessitates intent. Watch your writing. And except for that, you entirely miss my point, as usual.

You still do not understand the difference between 'arrest' and 'investigation' and 'prosecution' and 'verdict'. Think about it. If necessary, use Wikipedia.

Also, I have no doubt that in 'rottenacorn.com' you found THE authoritative source on the matter Rottenacorn (IP 64.225.154.239) runs on the web site of the Employment Policies Institute (IP 64.225.154.239). Which, you guessed it (not), is run by Berman & Co. (IP, coincidentally, 64.225.154.239) which is in turn a DC public affairs firm owned by Rick Berman. Who is a lobbyist and has close GOP ties.

PS: And searching up some additional links doesn't change a thing about that you swallow all that stuff hook, line and sinker. That is to say, you are a gullible person.

 

Your intent is clear, to you the republicans are evil incarnate.

 

No, it is just that if I was into marketing I would love you and your remarkable lack of curiosity.

 

Ragusa, a number of the references Martaug has mentioned specifically mentioned things like convictions and/or confessions. Additionally, I think rottenacorn.com is about as trustworthy as the NY Times (which has all but officially endorsed Obama), and yet even your NY Times article on 'voter purging' flat out said this was not intentional voter fraud, but rather attempts to comply with 'new' voter registration laws (from 2002, but this is a bureaucracy).

Acorn's fraud is even making it onto MSNBC these days, what with the one guy that got signed up 79 times and all. Now, they may not be the only ones doing things like this, but they are the ones that we know at the moment.

 

Know? Speak about. If in your eyes a major newspaper is as trustworthy as a PR house ... well, I hope you're joking.

I wanted to suggest that there is something other than ACORN out there, that has perhaps a larger impact.

How many sentences over what period of time?

Eight people in five years? That's all of sentencing I could find on martaug's copy paste smorgasbord. So yes, they have a 'record' of activism, and convictions.

I hold against that a solid body of evidence of GOP utilising voter-fraud as a preferred wedge issue, and the point that the GOP have long embraced voter suppression as a standard tactic. I felt that this was getting lost over getting very, very upset about ACORN.

To re-emphasise the interests of ACORN and the GOP: In the essence ACORN and the GOP are naturally on collision course. The one tries to get voters in, the others want voters out. Bang. The more important point I made above still stands: The GOP is a ruling party in many states and at the federal level and appears to use and to have used the tools of the state for voter suppression. That then is about abuse of power and IMO a much, much bigger issue. Also, I don't think that ACORN can decide the outcome of an election. Coordinated US wide voter purges probably can.

With a little effort that argument is comprehensible without suggesting a pathological hatred against the GOP on my part.

 

TGS - The guy is a cellphone salesman at a mall. He committed fraud on 72 applications (so he says). Obviously the guy can be paid-off to say anything to anyone. Look, the reason I bring up that he is a cellphone salesman, is that they are SOMETIMES notorious for fraud. Here's an example: Let's say he works for ATT and he turns in fraudulent applications. Then he gets caught committing fraud (which given the guys lack of character would not surprise me). Are you going to say, "this is what ATT is all about?" Of course there are "workers" who commit fraud. I know some cellphone guys who showed customers how to lie on applications to get a cellphone, or how to get around bad credit by committing fraud. I actually saw salesmen just type in random SS numbers on applications. Sorry, but your "Mr. Johnson" has no credibility. He was probably the one who approached the ACRON workers with the idea. That's not to say that Martaug is wrong that there isn't fraud committed by ACORN workers, there is - just is there is fraud in any large institution, or corporation for that matter.

 

Ragusa, from what I saw, your 'solig body of evidence' consisted of implications, claims, and some flat out misrepresentation on your part. Martaug's at least talked about legal actions taken against them.

At the moment, the NY Times is a PR house.

 

I would be really interested in the misrepresentation part. Could you elaborate? Especially on those two points:

• Is voter suppression not a standard GOP tactic?
• Is voter fraud not considered by the GOP a good wedge issue?

I answer both questions with a resounding 'yes'. With the very real politicisation scandals in mind that indeed has troubling implications, namely the question of abuse of power. You can read about such things in the dastardly liberal media I am thoroughly distrustful of the GOP utterances, in particular as far as voter fraud is concerned. Without a reason?

Spoiler

​

What was 'I don't recall', 'I have no recollection' or 'I don't remember ...' in the US attorney scandal hearings about? Senile dementia? Alzheimers? Avoiding prosecution for perjury, or worse? What about those 'lost' e-mails, wiped hard discs, just to keep it short? In one word? Omertà. If what you do is glorious you advertise it, especially in politics - you don't cover up unless you have to. Do cover ups create trust? Not with me.

You are concerned about proper elections? Why do you pounce on ACORN with a vengeance and complete attention, while ignoring the other? Why not keep two things on your radar at the same time? I read out of what you write that indeed the wedge issue strategy works. Knowing your customer is what market research is all about.

copy-paste = talk?

PS: Now this clip here is liberally biased, beware:

Spoiler

​

How was that Mr. Iglesias? "They wanted some splashy pre-election indictments ..."

 

Ragusa, you'll have to sumarize the Youtube clips for me. Dial-up and all.

As for the mis-representation, in the middle of your rant on GOP voter caging you linked to an article with 'voter purging', in which even the NY Times admits it's perfectly legitimate, if not right, and is only hitting the Dems more than the Reps because the Dems have signed so many more people up recently. In other words, you give the distinct and unavoidable impression that this is evidence of the GOP purging legitimate voters from the system, when the article itself says it isn't. I call that misrepresentation, what do you call it?

 

First clip - Gonzales' in the congress hearing about the US attorney firings, making a fool out of himself, by not remebering, recalling anything.

Second clip(s) - Greg Palast, after starting with the example of a New Mexican small (and poor) town, points out something along the line that GOP is purging voter rolls of poor voters (poor people generally; people facing foreclosure), while ACORN is trying to get poor voters (back?) on the voter rolls. He points out how has to do with GOP politics, brings a few samples and interviews David Iglesias, one of the aforementioned US attorneys who were fired for not prosecuting voter fraud because they didn't see prosecutable cases, which then produced said quote.

That was the very brief version.

 

Golzales and the attorney firings have never set well with me, but I don't necessarily see anything wrong going on there, certainly not voter supression. From what you said, it was a refusal to prosecute voter fraud (for which there would have to be at least a glimmer of evidece of voter fraud) that caused the dispute. Hardly proof that the GOP is purging voter records.

I'll believe Greg Palast when he stops talking. Isn't this the same guy that claims to have evidence that the Florida votes were rigged in 2000? Ok, where is it? to your credit, you did warn us about that one.

Lastly, Ragusa, your standard for Martuag seems to have been convictions, a standard he's met in some cases. Why don't you apply that same standard to your own claims? I've seen wild claims, conspiracy theories, and some things that look kinda shaky on the GOP part, but I have yet to see even legal action taken, much less convictions.

 

NOG,
let me guess, Greg Palast is an evil lefty who thus lies when he opens his mouth, can never be right, and who anyway has something ugly to hide under his fedora? If you don't smell the implications for the elections out of the US attorney scandal and the issue of voter fraud you're deaf-in-the-nose-if-sniffing-was-hearing The key is Iglesias' testimony. Or maybe you're one of those cheerful, nice people who see no evil, ever. I presume that's an enviable state of mind. I'm more like this guy here.

As for convictions, let's see, I immediately find those cases:

• You remember phonejamming? That's the case of Alan Raymond, a former regional director of the National Republican Senatorial Committee in New Hampshire. His successful effort was about preventing undesirable voters from coming to the ballot. After doing time he wrote a book about his former career: "How to rig an election".
• Then there are the others, Mr. Tobin and Mr. McGee.
• Two in California tricking people into registering Republican?

And some of the other things that I stumbled upon: Ever heard of dirty phone tricks in your home state? Montana's (Republican) lieutenant governor, John Bohlinger, apparently profoundly dislikes some things his party does in his homestate. And then there is the strange case of the incredible, disappearing American Center for Voting Rights. Also, I found a report on voter purges, and a story on the practical effects of the voter ID laws pushed by the GOP.

You know what just strikes me inappropriate? Couldn't you have googled that up all on your own? I really ask myself why I should do your homework. I presume demanding me to prove it is just too tempting, especially considering that the odds are that you're not particularly interested in what you're going to see anyway

 

Yeah, I've experienced that same thing. That's why I no longer bother in some of the threads. A particular poster cries, "prove it," and when you take the time to do so, he says, "so what." I think several others, like DR, has experienced the same thing....

 

Wow, ragusa just love that article by john bohlinger, well except for the biggest lie in it.

1) There is no one that has ever received 10 medals of honor

2) There have been no double winners of the medal of honor for action taking place/since 1917 when the rules were changed so that you can only be awarded 1.

3) There is no Frank St Pierre on the Medal of Honor Rolls for any action during WW2

So apparently this article is about a non-exsistant MOH Winner. If all your articles are as factual as these, you should be an honorary democratic leader for these wonderful non-facts & smears you keep bringing us.

 

Frank St Pierre was in the Canadian military, actually, so he couldn't have won the medal of honor. He was, however, very highly decorated.

 

Actually Drew, 24 canadians have earned the MoH over the years, all while serving with the US of course

Canadian Medal of Honor Recipients

1. BOIS, FRANK Quartermaster, U.S. Navy U.S.S. Cincinnati
2. BROWN, JOHN HARTIES, Capt., Coy D, 12th Kent. Inf.
3. BUCKLEY, DENIS, Pvt., Coy G, 136th New York Infantry
4. CAYER, OVILA, Sgt., Coy A 14th U.S. Volunteers
5. CHAPMAN, JOHN, 1st Maine Heavy Artillery
6. CHAPUT, LOUIS G. Landsman, U.S. Navy, U.S.S. Lackawanna
7. DODD, ROBERT F., Pvt., Coy E, 27th Mich. Inf.
8. DODDS, EDWARD E., Sgt, Coy C, 21st New York Cav.
9. FITZPATRICK, THOMAS, Coxswain, U.S. Navy, U.S.S. Hartford
10. GILMORE, JOHN C. Maj., 16th New York Inf.
11. HAGERTY, ASEL Private, Coy A, 61st New York Inf.
12. HIGGINS, THOMAS J., Sgt., Coy D, 99th Illinois Inf.
13. HOUGHTON, GEORGE L., Pvt, Coy D, 104th Illinois Inf.
14. McINTOSH, JAMES Captain of the Top, U.S. Navy U.S.S. Richmond
15. McMahon, Martin T. Captain, and aide de camp U.S. Volunteers
16. McVEANE, JOHN P. Corporal, Company D 49th New York Infantry
17. Murphy, James T. Private, Company L 1st Connecticut Artillery
18. O'Connor, Albert Sergeant, Company A 7th Wisconsin Infantry
19. Pickle, Alonzo H. Sergeant, Company B 1st Battalion Minnesota Infantry
20. Powers, Wesley J. Corporal, Company F, 147th Illinois Infantry
21. Rich, Carlos H. First Sergeant, Company K 4th Vermont Infantry
22. Scott, Alexander Corporal, Company D 10th Vermont Infantry
23. Shivers, John Private, U.S. Marine Corps
24. Young, Benjamin F. Corporal, Company I 1st Michigan Sharpshooters

 

martaug,
indeed the Lt. Gov.'s article contained an error. That makes that entire article a 'lie'. Brilliant. You're freakin' rabid. Give a fellow Marine like John Bohlinger some room for error: Frank St. Pierre didn't get ten Medals of Honor (MoH) but what about ten medals of honour? As in 'ten decorations'? That error (perhaps generated through an auto corrector function?) doesn't make the rest of the story invalid in any way: When Frank St. Pierre did not receive the MoH - does that mean he can vote? That aside, be a little generous: You yourself are hardly able to type a straight sentence. If every typo or error was a rotten apple that spoils the whole barrel you would 'lie' with every second post. You should be careful slinging such words around.

Frank St. Pierre apparently is a US citizen who appears to have served in the Canadian military during WW-II. That is nothing unusual. He apparently does live in Anaconda, and has apparently set up a scholarship fund there. That means that there is a real chance that person does exist, and that that story of him being taken off the voter roll is simply accurate. With the Lt. Gov. being a vet himself, and involving himself in veteran affairs, there is a chance he even knows him personally. But no doubt, you know best.

 

Martaug, I'm a veteran myself, and I know how medals like the Medal of Honor work. My point wasn't that he was Canadian, but that he was serving with Canada rather than the US, so he was never really in line for the Congressional Medal of Honor.

 

@ Drew, i was just pointing out to you(in case you didn't know) that some canadians had been awarded the Medal.

@ Ragusa, in an american paper, talking about an american voter, talking about "Medal of Honor" there is 1 & only 1 Medal that this refers to. Anyone who has served knows this.
The Medal is so highly respected that it is customary for all ranks to salute the recipient, regardless of rank.(kinda funny the first time you see a general salute a sergeant)

 

Martaug, a "veteran" to whom that is news is probably lying about his service. Quite a few non-citizens have received the Medal of Honor. I, too, find it somewhat alarming that this republican lieutenant governor would make such an error*.

* Given the sheer number of veterans in our country who know damn well that no one has won more than 2, let alone 10 medals of honor, he would have known that getting caught in a lie like this would be guaranteed. No politician, not even a really bad one, would expect to lie in this manner without being caught, so it seems fairly obvious to me that this is either a mistake or a misprint.