Cleric as a "fighter"

Remove all ads!

Hi,
like so many others, I come from BG2 and want to try out IWD2 now.
I read in these forums that Clerics actually make good melee fighters in IWD2, or rather 3rd Edition D&D rules.

Well, the way I know it (from BG2), fighters are much better in melee combat than clerics mainly because of 2 points: Thac0 and Attacks per round.
How's that in IWD2? Thac0 is replaced with BAB there, but how good is a clerics BAB progression compared to a fighters? Will a pure cleric have trouble hitting things? And will the IWD2 cleric get more attacks as he levels up?

In BG2, if you wanted a "fighting cleric" it was best to start as a fighter and then dual to cleric early. Like level 8-9 fighter and rest cleric. That way, the character had a headstart in Thac0 and Attacks per round which lasted throughout the game.
Now in IWD2 it seems to be common practice to make a fighter level 4 and put the rest into other classes... but that seems to be mainly for weapon specialization. Do those 4 fighter levels make a big difference for BAB and attacks too, or is it only for the weapon specialization?

Also, weapon specialization means +2 damage with that weapon, which doesn't really seem that much to me. Like if you normally do 20 damage per hit, you'd need to hit the enemy 10 times in to get a full 20 dmg (which is like one more attack) out of the feat. So if you don't have the feat, you just have to hit the enemy once more to catch up.
Furthermore, as damage per hit goes up, the value of a set +2 damage per hit decreases. If they do just 10 damage per hit, +2 still raises the damage output by 20%, but if they do 30 then it's maybe around 5% increased damage.

Also, how do rogues and bards compare to fighters/cleric in terms of BAB progression and attacks per round? Maybe even if they don't fall behind, their low AC makes them worse melee fighters?

Another thing: I want to make a party that can go through HoF mode as well. Now I've read that it's almost impossible to attain high enough AC for monsters in HoF mode, and that melee fighters don't do well in that mode. I'm not that big of a melee fighter fan anyways, so that's why I thought I could use my cleric(s) as a melee replacement in normal mode, and in HoF mode use it more as a caster. Does that sound good?

Oh and another thing: Do the cleric domains only differ from each other by domain spells and those extras, or do, for example, battleguards of tempus get better BAB and things like that (except for the axe thingy)? Because when I looked at the spell lists, I liked some of them much more than others, and I didn't like the battleguards domain spell list especially well. But then if I wanted to use my cleric as a melee fighter...

 

They didn't make 9 different orders of cleric for nothing; the cleric is the most important and useful class in Icewind Dale 2. Someone else can hopefully fill you in about the BAB and damage relative to warrior class builds, all I know is that cleric BAB is not far behind any warrior, and it's the healing and buff spells a cleric has access to, that make it much more powerful.
You can create your frontline cleric with combat more in mind than spellcasting by paying proper attention to its life stats (STR-DEX-CON) and keeping its wisdom at 19 or 20. All you need to cast level 9 spells.

Your doubts about weapon specialization are not unjust, i've heard others say they ignore it like i ignore ranged weapon feats. But chasing the highest possible damage is a powergaming goal in itself, and many players wouldn't do without it. if that 5-10% extra damage helps you kill your enemies quicker, it may make battles easier than the numbers show.

Rogues and bards are disappointingly poor melee characters, they aren't very popular among powergamers. The best of their abilities can be utilized as mix-in with other builds.

Your planned HoF tactic is sound, but the cleric can take on a measure of the combat even in HoF, even for the toughest battles, though an east time is not guaranteed. I have 2 clerics on the frontlines, and they serve me well. Spellcasting in IWD2 is more important than in BG2, this was a learing experience for me. But it makes the game more fullfilling and fun, less of a straightforward hack-n-slash.

I'm pretty sure all clerics get the same combat progression, excluding their listed bonuses, and quests.

 

Take a look at the BAB progression tables in the back of your manual. This will answer how many base attacks per round at which to hit bonus each class and class combination gets. Base attacks per rounds are capped at 4 which you get with a BAB of 16+, which is even reached by a rogue4/wizard26. Unlike in 2E a level 12 sorcerer gets twice as many attacks per round than a level 5 fighter.
One AB difference means: at most every 20th attack has a different outcome

4 fighter levels yield 1 extra BAB compared to 4 cleric levels besides the specialization bonuses.

Rogues and bards have the same BAB progression as priests, they don't have worse AC than fighters if you don't give them bad stats.

Sending a bard into melee is a waste, bard songs are extremely powerful, and with lingering song even three times as useful.

Cleric deities don't matter for the BAB progression.

 

My advice would be to keep your Cleric pure at least until you get the best spells. Weapon Specialization is not worthless but the bonus is limited in comparison to what you get from spells with a higher level Cleric (many buffing spells get better with your casting level).

Plus if it's your first run through the game you'd be better off avoiding spoilers and that includes avoiding finding out which are the best weapons available in game and what weapon specialization you should focus on.

One major difference between BG2 and IWD2 is that high STR matters a lot with two handed weapons. You get an extra bonus to your damage with a two handed weapon, the tips that appear in game while loading state that and if you equip your strong characters with two handed weapons you'll notice a huge difference in the damage output.

If you want to abuse multiclassing (which is certainly the main attraction and temptation when playing IWD2) make sure you don't spread your levels too much with a spellcaster (or a Barbarian if you want to take advantage of Greater Rage before the end of the game in Normal Mode).

Multiclassing non casting characters can be a good idea though. Bear in mind that there are a few alignment limitations (Cleric orders have such restrictions, Monk have to be lawful, Barbarians have to be chaotic, Druids have to be neutral -but not necessarily true neutral).

A few tips:

-Rangers aren't that good in this game but taking one Ranger level gives two weapon fighting and ambidexterity if your character is not wearing heavy armour. The way it works in IWD2 you don't want to use a heavy weapon in your off hand (you get penalty if you do, so you can't wield a hammer like CF in BG2 without being less effective). It works well with Weapon Finessed warriors though (with appropriate skills they can be good but if you're looking for high damage output go for high STR and two handers).

-Paladins and Monks will refuse rewards (so think about it when making your main talker/diplomat).

-Fulltime rogues are not essential. If you only want a Rogue to disarm traps and unlock the common opinion is to make a high INT Rogue 2/Wizard. If you create a Rogue always start as a level 1 Rogue since Rogues get extra skillpoints when they begin (you don't get these if you take the Rogue level later).

-Sneak attacks don't work like Backstab in BG2. You can hide and sneak attack but you can also flank adversaries (meaning that if a foe is not facing your character you deal extra damage). Having a tank engage an enemy is the best way to allow your Rogue to deal extra damage. Sneak attacks don't work with ranged attacks either.

-If you want a fulltime sneak attacker I'd suggest adding at least one level from a class that allows the use of all weapons and wearing heavy armour for extra protection (Paladin is a possibility, Battleguard gives you weapon focus in axes, Fighter for an extra feat). Penalties to thieving skills won't matter that much and the armour makes a hell of a difference in battle. Since your sneak attacks get better the more Rogue levels you have keep this character as pure as possible. One last comment on such a build: contrary to BG2 you can sneak attack with any weapon. To achieve flanking having a long range weapon is necessary. A sneak attacking Rogue is much more effective with a high STR and a two hander (contrary to BG2 DEX is not that essential).

-Some classes bring a lot with just one level (once again don't multi class your casters, fulltime Barbarians, fulltime Monks and sneak attacking Rogues too much). One Paladin level is neat for high CHA characters, one Monk level for Evasion and bonus to saves (great for Druids since the AC bonus works with wildshapes), one Barbarian level for Rage and weapon proficiencies, you get the idea.

-Bards are great. You get the last song at level 11 so unless you want to get higher level bard spells (but since the bard will certainly not be your main spellcaster you might not want that) you can multiclass rather freely.

 

Some excellent advice above, I might just add in my two cents on the original question asked. Basically, clerics work well as 'fighters' in IWD2 because they've a lot of great buff spells that can only be cast on themselves. Their BAB and HP are less than fighters but the buff spells will make up for it. Fighters will be better in the earliest stages of the game, before clerics get access to most of these spells.

Levelling works very differently for splitting classes than in BG2. In BG2 the first few levels in a class can be got for almost no experience, as it only costed say 150,000 XP to move from level 1 to 8 but 200,000 to move from level 13 to 14 (haven't checked the manual, the numbers are completely wrong but you get the idea). For a tiny percentage of your overall XP you could pick up a good few levels in another class, for both dual and multi class. In IWD2 all your levels come from the one XP pool. So, it costs as much XP to pick up two levels in a class as it does to move from 13 to 15. This is very damaging for spellcasters like clerics, as higher levels mean better spells.

4 fighter levels isn't going to make a massive difference to HP and BAB. I'd say the main advantages are the extra feats (three I think) and weapon specialisation. Specialisation isn't earth shattering but has the advantage of being always on against every enemy you fight. It's a nice bonus against regular enemies you're not going to waste buffs against.

 

If it's a first run through the game you may not know which weapon proficiency you'd like to take and you may not want to specialize on more than one weapon type with a Cleric either. A high level cleric gets enough spells to be able to buff almost all the time so it won't matter that much (unless you don't rest to renew spells from time to time).

Déise makes a good point about feats but with weapon specialization you'll spend 2 feats so you won't get so many extra feats and all in all it will lower your effective casting level by four levels (which is a lot in normal mode).

Regarding feats, once you've played the game a few times you'll find out that although feats are numerous there is only a limited number of feats that will really enhance a given build. Some feats are just not that useful.

A final tip, avoid Improved Initiative since it doesn't really work.

 

-Another thing about clerics in IWD2 is that they can cast healing spells spontaneously. This allows you to focus on an almost exlusively buff/curse/nuke spell list. Combine that with good BAB growth, Domain spells and the fact that IWD2 features some very good cleric items and you'll understand why they are so much in demand.
-Good BAB growth means your character can hit consistently well in IWD2. Fighters will do better of course, but you really won't be too far behind. Good BAB growth also applies to Bards and Rogues, though more to Bards since people don't usually make Rogue-centric fighting builds. Melee bards may seem impractical, except they aren't.
-Casters tend to fare much better in HoF although you will still need characters who can hit well and hit hard.

 

GOOD aligned clerics can heal yes, although the evil ones cast the harm spells instead.

 

While it's techically irrelevant whether your front liners get their buffs from a dedicated, wise (and commonly very, very frail) priest in the back ranks or supply it themselves, it's usually more convenient to have your frontliners supply it themselves, ie. being Clerics of some decently non-pacifist deity.

A select few of the buffs are caster only, most notably Holy Power and to a lesser extent, Draw Upon Holy Might and Divine Shell. But there's just something special about advancing in with two (or more!) frontliner clerics and launching a prayer/recitation combo on the rushing horde of enemies - without the immediate threat of losing your (maybe only) healer in the process. "There's nothing quite like it", as they put it so exquisitely.

 

What do you mean with "a long range weapon is necessary"? Like a bow or crossbow?
And what's the difference between a sneak attack and flanking?
When I use a Rogue with, say, a two handed sword and put it behind a monster (which is facing my cleric), does the Rogue do extra sneak attack damage with every hit then?

Oh, another little thing: There's "large sword" and "great sword".. am I right that large sword is like longsword and great sword is a two handed sword?

Anyways, thanks for all the replies. Seems like Clerics are really much better here than in BG2.

I tried with a party of 2 clerics (one of which was to be primarily a caster, the other one a melee fighter), a sorcerer and a wizard, but it got kind of boring in the prologue, when I watched the clerics try to beat a goblin and they were constantly missing.
So thought I'd try something else, and started a new game in HoF mode.
I used a sorcerer with summon monster to get rid of the first goblin, get a level and take on the goblins more or less one by one, by hiding and resting and so on. At level 7 or 8 I added a cleric to the party, and cleared the Northwest dock building with the trapdoor. After that I added another sorcerer and cleric, and also got summon undead, which let me summon the greater boneguards or something like that. Those basically cleared the rest of the prologue for me easily. I didn't level up the new characters yet, but they can go to level ten or eleven already, which I think is just about five levels away from what you normally end up after finishing normal mode. The first sorcerer I made can even go to level fifteen.
Of course, I don't have any items yet, they're basically all wielding sticks. =)

Now I wonder: Should I add a rogue, fighter, monk, bard...? I thought a bard might be interesting, or maybe a level 5 bard (I think that song gives luck) and rest rogue? I mean will the bard/rogue be able to successfully do some sneak attacks for decent damage (for when I want him to do something else than singing)
What would you recommend for the 5th and 6th slot?
Or I could make a full bard who concentrates on buffing spells (so he can buff and then start singing all the time), or maybe a bard5 rest druid, who might cover some of the buffing spells the clerics don't have?

Also, I made one of the new clerics a dreadmaster of bane, because I heard they're useful, but it seems most of their domain spells can be negated by a successful saving throw. So that makes them useless in HoF mode, except maybe when I use a lot of curses like Doom.
The Stormlord of Talos for example has a lot of damage spells, which are only cut in half by a saving throw.

 

No, more like a spear or a two handed weapon type (one that can reach enemies from a distance but not a ranged weapon) because if the Rogue is too close he might not be able to flank his enemy. With hindsight I recognize that my phrasing was bad.

A Rogue gets extra damage when the opponent doesn't face him. If you hide and backstab the old fashioned way you'll get one sneak attack and then the opponent will face you. You can't sneak attack someone who is attacking you, it's that simple. In your example your Rogue will be able to sneak attack as well because he is flanking his foe but if the foe turns around to face the Rogue the foe won't be flanked anymore. The exceptions are barbarians who can't be flanked and other Rogues (from level 6 and more) who can't be flanked unless by a Rogue who is four or more levels higher than they are. Rogues with Sneak Attacks require some micromanagement to be effective. I hope that clears things up a bit.

Correct. You're welcome. I wouldn't say that Clerics in BG2 are bad but it's true that Clerics in IWD2 have certain advantages (no weapon restriction and better martial prowess, order bonuses).

I can't comment on HoF since I loathe that mode. IMO it's just boring to watch your sumons do all the work while you wait until you get some overpowered items to be able to use your characters in combat. I don't care for goblins who are stronger than Giants...

Regarding the Bane question, I'm surprised you don't know that Banites can get a one time +2 bonus in WIS in the game. That's why most players seem to be fond of them.

If you haven't finished the game yet perhaps you should stick to Normal Mode it makes sense to complete it at least once before trying HoF.

If you find the normal mode too easy you should try Tactics4IWD2 a fantastic mod that makes the game more challenging in a very sensible way (enemies will summon undead minions and use Improved Invisibility to their advantage) but I'd advise anyone to finish the game before using mods.