Kosovo declares independence

Living a western lifestyle - embracing capitalism, and taking advantage of the technical and practical blessings of modernity - and having collective (sub-?)consciousness aren't mutually exclusive.

 

You're making quite the generalization there, Tal. There are some Serbs who probably fit the bill, alright - but to imply, as I think you did, that the entire nation is composed of fierce nationalists is more than a little heavy-handed. For the record, most Serbs I've spoken to were hardly fanatics - though, I grant you, we did not discuss some of the touchier historical issues. Sure, many have a sense of patriotism - some more, some less, but some of what I read here makes it sound like they'd all line up behind every crazy idea proposed by some cook in Belgrade like a nation of brown shirts.

Certainly, there are some Serbs who are as bad as you say, such as those who came up with the idea of Greater Serbia - though, mind you, when it was first formed the Serbs were practically the only Slavic and orthodox people in the Balkans not subjugated by the Ottoman empire, so it was a matter of pan-Slavism just as much as it was nationalism. However, there's an angle in the current situation that is often overlooked: not all Serbs who are dismayed at what happened in Kosovo are rabid right-wingers. A separatist movement has been supported, and recognized, in spite of an international document guaranteeing the territorial integrity of the host country. If that's not a freaking raw deal, then I don't know what is - and Serbs have every right to be pissed off.

Of course, that doesn't mean I support what happened at the US embassy. It is obvious that there are some fringe right cooks that are going haywire, and it's possible that a few "politicians" prefer to sulk it out rather than actually do something that would improve their country's position. However, that should not detract from the fact that there are legitimate grievances on the Serbian side. I'm sure some media somewhere will be thrilled to use the embassy attack in an opportunity to engage in the high-handed BS of the sort Rags had posted, but I hope everyone here is above such drivel.

BTW, I'm honestly surprised that there was more damage done than during the riots in Beirut last year. Maybe the US embassy in Lebanon is better protected?

 

Autonomy would have been the best sollution and I was very surprised that the Ahtisaari group tilted towards independence. This was probably because Kosovo albanians made it pretty clear that it would be an unacceptable solution and an unilateral declaration of independence would follow. This was all about finding a working solution ot a very difficult problem and in my view the solution which probably causes the least bloodshed.

There is also something scary about the "Kosovo is Serbia" rethoric I keep hearing from Serbia. If Kosovo is Serbian cultural heartland I can't help but wonder how muslim mosques and the albanian majority fit into this concept. When Milosevic started to violently crack down the KLA there is no question in my mind that the goal was to ethnically cleanse the terretory and remake it Serbian. Fortunately the memory of Srebrenica was present enough to give NATO a reason to intervene.

I also can't think of this as any sort of retribution towards Serbia, I'm sure Serbians like to think that they are being punished but I don't see that being the case. It was about finding a lasting solution to Kosovo, one which preferably would not result in a civil war.

 

Certainly, Serbian nationalism is alive and well - better than most of its peers throughout Europe. I do not consider this only due to Serbian national character, however, but to what has been happening to Serbia in the last 10-15 years. If we don't take into account how they probably looked to people there, we'd be missing the proverbial elephant: the Kosovo war and subsequent support for the secession have framed political discourse in the country. That's nothing surprising - just remember how 9/11 changed political discourse in the US, and try to put it in perspective. Hope for EU membership might be a powerful incentive for some people, but the situation around Kosovo has done much more for Serbian radicalism than the prospect of EU membership could counteract.

Look, I'm not denying that there's an idea about a "Great Serbia" among some intellectuals and that it may color the public discourse. However, I think you're giving it way too much credit. IMO it was recent history more than any far-fetched theories that shape public thought in Serbia. In the last 20 or so years, Yugoslavia - essentially a Serbia-centered federal state - has disintegrated; parts of it fairly violently. While that does indeed show that the Serbian elite was not ready to relinquish control, dissolution of federal states is seldom peaceful even when ultranational ideologies are not involved. What I think was more important is that there are Serbian minorities in some of those countries, and those minorities were feeling threatened by the secession. This, again, is not something I'd say would be unique to Serbia. On the other hand, some ex-Yugoslav states seceded with minimal problems even when they were in close proximity to Belgrade - such as (FYRO) Macedonia and Montenegro. With them in mind, I think the idea that a concept of "Great Serbia" was the major component of Serbian political culture is an incorrect one.

On the other hand, in the last 10 years as Serbia itself essentially lost a part of its own territory. While some intellectuals might have regarded Bosnia or Macedonia as Serbian, Yugoslavia had been a federal state - and Serbia was not. Given how things unfolded, I can't really blame the Serbs for being angry. A region was essentially put out of the state's control, ethnic Serbs were threatened and at times harassed, and the region had been increasinly vocal in saying that it would secede - regardless of what Belgrade said about it. It's hard for me to imagine a country where this would not be an issue - scratch that, THE issue. The way I see it, for a Serbian politician to appear to place European issues over it would equal a political suicide.

Second, it's arguable just how wide Milosevic's support was. For all his populist maneuvering and control over media and various other institutions, his support was neither overwhelming nor monolithic, and his ratings before the NATO bombings began had been somewhere in the 30's and 40's. We should also be mindful of the fact that overall uncertainty and wars worked for him, at least in the short term. Few things cause people to unite around the government like an external threat, especially when said government owns (or can otherwise influence) most of the major media. The last is a fairly standard scenario, as far as I know.

All in all, I think I understand your points and support some of them, but I have a slightly different opinion on the Serbian people. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe their national character is much closer to those of most western nations than they are often given credit for.

 

I hope NATO or the UN can plan them into the agenda for intervention.

Many countries are just fed up whit peace keeping in unstable places. I get sick when I see a prime minister from Wherever asking for help. Take afganistan. We Dutch are trying to help, but the wall of resistance from Nato, the afgan government, the neighboring countries etc etc.

I am afraid Kosovo will be the next place for UN troops to die meaningless and stupid. But we have to try because looking the other way, like many nations do, is far worse.

 

I know, I think they made a very big mistake, and there's going to be blood spilled over it. However, just because the Kosovars want something doesn't mean it has to happen - they weren't only the victims in the entire conflict. OTOH, many European states were incredibly quick with their recognitions of an independent Kosovo - nearly shockingly so. It's not that likely that Serbia would have invaded the region when there's an international mission, featuring troops from these same countries, in it. I wonder if the US support for an independent Kosovo, which imo is at the base of its quick recognition, isn't more of a publicity stunt aimed at improving their abroad reputation, particularly among Muslim countries.

Sometimes - in fact, quite often - history and culture mix. Kosovo was considered a part of Serbia historically despite its large percentage of Albanian population (until 1945 it was 45-65%, depending on the source), due imo to events around the 14-15th century. After WWI, in particular, Albanians had a higher fertility rate, while a starting urbanization of Yugoslavia led more and more Serbs to move to Belgrade or elsewhere, and there was also an ugly episode during WWII when Kosovo was part of Albania - at that time an Italian pseudo-protectorate. On the other hand, Serbia isn't the only country where one region or another is predominantly populated by an ethnic minority, yet in most cases the interests of the state are given precedence. There was a double standard with how Kosovo was treated, and shouts along the lines of Kosovo being Serbian are, well, only to be expected. If all stays on the level of shouting I'd say things aren't so bad.

 

Yes it does, unless you supress them by force. Given the stances of both Kosovo and Serbia it was clear that unless Serbia starts another war campaign in Kosovo it would either become fully independent or de facto independent. De facto indepentent regions are uncontrollable, unstable and havens for all sorts of criminal/terrorist activity (a bit like what Kosovo is today). So from the three options of real independence, war or de facto independence, the real independence seems the only viable option. Of course you could argue that if the Kosovar would have agreed to autonomy this all would be a lot easoer for everyone, but they didn't and would have made an unilateral declaration of independence anyhow.

As for bloodshed I doubt there will be very much of it. NATO will remain in Kosovo to secure that and also secure the rights of the Serbian minority. With their presence I'd be very surprised to see bigger waves of unrest in the area. Individual incidents will occur though.

As for the quick recognizion, this was all carefully organized. The Kosovo adminstration had surely consulted the western powers about how to proceed with the declaration and it had been agreed on in advance that the recognizitions would follow shortly. Nothing suspicious about it really. Also perhaps I'm a bit naive but to me this is about Kosovo and its people and not about some political game played against Russia, Serbia or whatever.

While interesting I have to say that what happened less than ten years ago has a lot more relevance today than what happened several decades or even centuries ago. I'm sure the Serbians have a very good historical claim upon Kosovo, but I really see today's ethnic breakdown and the more recent history a whole lot more relevant when deciding what to do with the region.