1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Black and White

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by dmc, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,731
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    379
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG] This comes off the "guy fired for wearing a non-PC costume" thread.

    Generally, do people think that we need to take things as they are now, without going back 150-100-50-20 years (or whatever) to where there was pervasive and obvious racism?

    On the one hand, you have a present situation where there are laws (at least in the US) governing institutionalized racism. For example, you cannot refuse to rent an apartment to someone based on his race in most circumstances, nor can you refuse to accommodate someone in a retail establishment based on race, etc.

    However, there is a whole undercurrent of racism that still exists according to many people. Also, can we ignore the fact that, in general and looking at the black/white picture, blacks are significantly less educated and have less resources? It's a tough question, and it is the heart of affirmative action -- should we level the playing field and, if so, how?

    Generally, I am all for the idea that the best person qualified for the job/school slot should get the job/school slot, but it brings to mind the troubling idea that those who have less resources to begin with are going to be kept in that situation because they simply do not have the education and background to make the leaps necessary to get to the next economic level (as a group -- obviously, on the individual basis you can always point to someone from a disadvantaged background who turned out to be a massive success or, equally, you can point to someone who comes from massive money who is a waste of space and resources and winds up in jail).

    If it's your company that is being forced to hire what you feel is an underqualified person based on race or, more personally, if you don't get a spot at a university because there are a certain number of less educated (and perhaps less intelligent) people of another race who are taken for diversity reasons, then you are going to be ticked off. But is that personal level a good enough reason to throw up our hands and say "well, it's a good enough attempt, let's get rid of all equal rights laws"?

    In the hills of the Carolinas, poor is poor, whether you are white, black, yellow or whatever (I like that, although I probably am not quoting it completely accurately). However, in the USA, while poor is poor, you are more likely to be poor if you are black than white. How important is it to continue to try to level the playing field?
     
    Nakia and Harbourboy like this.
  2. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now?

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm of the belief that if we were to just stop all efforts at "levelling the field", it would work out on its own. However, that'd take perhaps centuries (certainly generations), and possibly involve some serious backlash once the "rich white" sect had its hands untied, so the short term ramifications would probably not be worth it. We're pretty much dedicated to this route now, and we need to see how it plays out.
     
  3. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,815
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    336
    I don't have a lot of time for this right now, but I'll take an initial stab at it.

    I'm not so sure that it would work out on it's own, but I agree that if it did, it would take a very long time.

    Anyway, addressing dmc's original post, I think it's pretty hard to deny that an undercurrent of racism against blacks still exists. I do agree, however, that some (not all, or even most) people in the black community like to play the race card at every opportunity, and this can create a backlash that doesn't really help if we're trying to eliminate racism.

    The question as to how best to level the playing field is indeed a tough one. There are definite drawbacks to affirmative action, but as Fel said, we're comitted to the path now, so unless someone can come up with something better (and that someone probably isn't going to be me), we should see it through.
     
  4. Spellbound

    Spellbound Fleur de Mystique Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Female
    It is no secret that blacks are known for abusing the welfare system and milking it for all it's worth. I would imagine some poor whites share in that action, but it is the blacks that are particularly known for it. Could it be that the idea that you are more likely to be poor if you are black, have to do with children of welfare parents being raised under the welfare system.....and then going on to perpetuate the same? Having 10 kids under welfare that we, the taxpayers are paying for? And why not? Their parents did it.....it worked for them. What job could possibly pay them what they get from the government, for essentially doing nothing other than giving birth? And on and on it goes.
     
    Harbourboy likes this.
  5. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    Ah, but which playing field are we leveling? Is it the 'inclusion' field? Do you think blacks are (or would be) denied access to higher education just because they were black? That's what affirmative action is based on, and I think, at this point, it is by and large unneccesary. The poverty issue is another playing field, and one that still needs to be leveled. But that can be done with scholorships and the like. The black kid still has to earn the spot, but now he gets help paying for it. I'd much rather see all the money going into affirmative aciton now go into something like that instead.

    My point, however, is that a large portion of young black people today (at least around here) are growing up under the impression that if they act oppressed, people will let them walk all over them. They see what their parents and grandparents accomplished through struggle and suffering as free rides for themselves. They are taught (by parents or other teens) that 'The Government' and 'The Man' and 'The White Man' and 'Crackas' are the enemy, and that any action that such entities support must be an attack on blacks (or atleast that's how they come off). I'm sure some of the black people in jail are there because of poverty, and I wouldn't be shocked to hear that a few of them are there just because of racism, but I'd be willing to bet a majority of the black people in jail are there because they chose to do something that attacked these percieved power systems, even if they were just mindless, pointless acts of rebellion.

    You all know what I'm talking about. It's commonly called the 'gangsta' mentality, but 95% of them are young black people, and 80% of young black people are them. Again, this is from personal observations and estimates from around here. Percentages may vary.
     
  6. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,605
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    If, by "abuse" you mean "use", then you have a point. A larger percentage of black people are on welfare because a larger percentage of them are poor. Using the benefits for which you qualify is not "abuse". We all know that, in order to really make a good wage nowadays, you are usually going to need a degree. Now, do you think someone who grew up in poverty would be more or less likely than someone who grew up middle class will be more likely to get a college education?
     
  7. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    Data, please.
     
  8. Spellbound

    Spellbound Fleur de Mystique Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Female
    First off, I meant "abuse" -- there are many blacks that have no intention of getting off of welfare -- they have a free ride (oh and wait...speaking of rides....these are the ones with cadillacs parked out front of the grocery stores that will hold the food they just paid for with food stamps).

    "A larger percentage of black people are on welfare because a larger percentage of them are poor."

    Where do you think the classification of "poor" comes from? From the Welfare rosters, that's where. So which comes first, the chicken or the egg? I know, personally, of a few black students here at school who are on welfare, with 3 or 4 kids each, getting financial aid, that refuse to attend class, cheat their way through, flunking the same class 2 and 3 times. They have no interest in being students -- they see the financial aid as ANOTHER handout, a system to be abused. I've had these individuals in my classes and have flunked them over and over again. Look around at your universities -- there are many blacks that fit this description, just as there are those blacks who truly DO want an education and EARN IT. One of the brightest students I've ever had is black and in my IT class this semester. So I'm not saying ALL blacks fit the "abuse" category -- but when it comes to Welfare abuse, they by far tip the scales.
     
    Nakia likes this.
  9. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,605
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    You don't seriously believe this, do you? Why would you check the welfare rosters, when not everyone who qualifies actually gets welfare, when you could check income levels with the IRS? Or the census bureau? I'm with Amaster. Data, please.
     
  10. Spellbound

    Spellbound Fleur de Mystique Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Female
    You're going to check income levels with the IRS, when many of the severely poor don't work? I wasn't stating that ALL poor people are registered in the welfare rolls -- I was referring to his classification of "poor" as defined by the Census -- and referring to the statement that was made under the other topic. Different measures of poverty.
     
    Dinsdale likes this.
  11. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    45
    I would not know where they check that in the US but in Finland it's up to you to prove that you earn little enough to be qualified for getting unemployment benefits. This is usually done by submitting your tax information.
     
  12. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,605
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    No-one can stay indefinitely on welfare without working. To get state funds, you are required to prove that you are working or that you are at least looking for a job (which, in Iowa, means applying for a minimum of 2 jobs a week). That said, anyone who qualifies for welfare is also going to qualify for the EIC, so, if they aren't filing for taxes, they're losing money. All that aside, the Census is likely the best place to look for poverty figures, especially since they actively try to count homeless people (who almost never get welfare).
     
  13. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    And I'm saying that if you want to be taken seriously, you need to provide data, not anecdotes.
     
  14. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    May 29, 2003
    Messages:
    13,354
    Likes Received:
    99
    I think that you have to focus on what you can do as an individual, the things that are within your own power. As far as I can see, that means something as simple as treating everyone as individuals and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    Sounds simplistic and a bit :hippy:, but that's my view.
     
  15. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    136
    Gender:
    Female
    quote from Spell Checker dictionary:
    "2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge "

    Based on the above we are all to some extent or other prejudiced.

    I have personally suffered from prejudice both racially and for where I was born so I feel rather strongly about it. That said I do have mixed feelings about 'Affirmative Action'. I think it is needed but also that it perpetuates itself. 'Affirmative Action' is run by bureaucrats and bureaucrats like job security just as much as the next guy. Instead of encouraging people to learn to fish they keep feeding them fish. If you want data I will run a Google search and see what I can come up with.

    I think education is the key to helping; both education for the 'oppressed' and education for the oppressor.
     
  16. Spellbound

    Spellbound Fleur de Mystique Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Female
    AMaster -- What I provided was my opinion, based on my experiences. You can call it what you like, if "anecdotes" suites you, then so be it. I've lived all over the US and over 15 years in the southeast -- I've observed what I've been talking about first hand. I've lived in very poor black neighborhoods, where I was one of a handful of whites. You, on the other hand, may have observed things differently.

    I have spent over an hour trying to find Welfare abuse data for the sake of the argument, without much success. However, as I said earlier, what I've stated here is my opinion based on what I've seen. And on the topic of taking me seriously or not - it doesn't much matter to me if you do or if you don't -- I'm not trying to win you over. These kinds of discussions are most usually polar I think, without much swaying between the ranks. When discussions occur between people, I don't think to ask people for their facts to support their opinion -- I try to respect their opinion for what it is, though I may not agree with it and will challenge it -- I guess I'm not a very good debater.
     
  17. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,605
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    My boss frequently argues, from his experiences, that any white man who walks into a black neighborhood will get his ass kicked or worse (I've live in a "black" neighborhood for the last 2-3 years), that blacks and hispanics don't take care of their kids, that any time a white man is outnumbered by black people, they will beat him up, that half of all black people in Louisiana are on welfare (it's actually a bit under five percent and 80% of those recipients are actually children) and that the black majority (which is nonexistent, since 64% of the Louisiana population is actually white) stops the government from changing the laws. He says these things from his experience and refuses to acknowledge any factual evidence which countermands his conclusions. If your anecdotes are based in reality, they will stand up to factual scrutiny. If they do not, it's probably because they aren't true.
     
  18. Spellbound

    Spellbound Fleur de Mystique Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Female
    You seem to want to make the leap from the fact that welfare abuse data isn't that readily available to the fact that what I say isn't true. I do research for a living and if I thought some premise wasn't true simply because it didn't surface immediately, I'd be in a sorry state -- and I'd get nothing published. Fortunately, that's not the case. Or do you maybe think that I should spend hours researching something that is discussed here? Well I don't. I don't have that kind of time. And... if you want to go down the fact route----I have yet to see one piece of so-called "fact" that you have posted in this thread. Please, save your judgments for someone else. You are entitled to your opinion;I'm entitled to mine. The truth of your argument is certainly no more justified than mine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2007
  19. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    To address the original topic, there are two separate but intertwined issues of social justice. The first relates to poverty, the second to race.

    Poverty is heritable. Yes, this goes against conventional wisdom--'hard work is all you need to be successful'--but it's fully supported by all the data I've seen (I can provide). People who are born into poverty tend to remain there. People born with social advantages--'my parents went to college'--tend to inherit thosel. I could go on at length, but that's the gist of it.

    The second is that a disproportionately large number of blacks are impoverished. This is in large part a legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

    Poverty is heritable, a disproportionately large number of blacks are born into poverty--therefore a disproportionately large number of blacks remain in poverty.

    So, as to whether it's valuable to continue attempting to level the playing field; yes, but it's more important to address poverty in a general way. If poverty were addressed, the remaining imbalances would be reduced as a result.

    I don't think my experience is relevant, which is why I'm not basing arguments upon it. I don't think your experience is relevant either, which is why I'm not interested in arguments based upon it.

    When we're talking about national policy--or at least these national policies--personal experience shouldn't enter the equation. If it does, it should be used to illustrate a conclusion drawn from data.

    As for why I called your arguments in this thread anecdotal, here's what wiki has to say:

    "Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote, or hearsay. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, as evidence that cannot be investigated using the scientific method. The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy."
     
  20. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,103
    Media:
    127
    Likes Received:
    183
    Gender:
    Male
    Science is a matter of making a hypothesis, testing your hypothesis against the real world (through personal experience, either your own or somebody else's) , and then either confirm, reject or refine your hypothesis.

    Hypothesis: Blacks are poor because they are downtrodden. They need a head start, so we'll pass a government program called "Affirmative Action". In twenty or thirty or maybe fourty years' time blacks will have achieved an equal standing with whites.

    Observation fourty years later: Blacks are still poor, largely live in ghettos, are overrepresented in prisons, need special privileges to get into colleges and Affirmative Action has gone from a temporary government program to a permanent entitlement (which, IMO, is based on the racist assumption that blacks will forever need "entitlement"). Moreover, racial tensions are as high as ever, with whites being angry at what they see as special treatment of blacks at the expense of whites, while blacks are angry because whites still don't treat them as equals.

    Conclusion: Affirmative Action didn't work. Refine or reject hypothesis.

    Where my personal observations run against what I can read in a book or on a Web Site, I have to either distrust my own senses or conclude that the book or site is wrong. My personal experiences matter to me. Yours should matter to you. Or as my scout master used to say, when the map and the terrain don't match, follow the terrain.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.